Rev,please reconsider the posting rules for developer forums

[Seiko]

Rev' I know you've stated before you'd prefer the current setup but I think this really sums up the problem and one of the reasons this section isn't and probably won't take off.

Markus Maki wrote:
Reverend, just a suggestion, I'd actually like it more if people could respond to the threads I start... Could get a bit of a discussion going.

Not that I have time to moderate it but still, I would get an impression whether people think I'm full of b.s. or not

I'd prefer if we keep things the way it is.

If you want to respond to questions raised by the forum folks in threads they start as a result of a posting by you on your own page or something they simply want to ask you, you can do so in those threads -- it is not necessary to respond to them here on your own page. Cool"

Surely, if we can reply only to the topics we'd still manage to maintain an ordered list of topics. At the moment it's so disjointed it's dificult for both the developer, poster and readers alike to follow a thread. I know this isn't a democratic site and you've put a good deal of effort putting this site together but perhaps you could have a quick poll to see what people generally think. I'm sure you'll find although you've come up with a good idea it can be improved dramatically if people can respond to the developers own topics. This should allow a much easier positng style to be utilised and will keep the information and discussion grouped logically. At the moment we're hopping between forums like a lost child.

Hope you're the type to allow ideas to grow?

Seiko

 

[Natoma]

I tend to agree. It's very strange to have a post started in a developer thread, continued in this forum, and then answered in the developer's thread in their particular forum.

Very annoying to follow.

 

[Reverend]

I know it is difficult.

However, I've always wanted this project to be like the .plan files -- it's not meant to be "interactive" the way I'm sure a lot of you would like, and certainly not meant to be forum-based. I felt that the .plan way always was attractive to the developers who participate in it for the sole reason that it is a place that they can speak their mind and leave it at that.

I am sure that if this project started off NOT in the way it is now (forum-based) and is basically the way .plan is, your complaint (representative of a number I'm sure) would not come about.

However... I do understand what you guys want (and it is something I've thinking about too) and I have seen at least one definite evidence (Markus) that developers don't mind interacting with folks on the things they post. Dave will be working on turning this into an article-based project, which I agree to. I don't think Dave will mind me posting his little email to me, which should explain the direction this project will be headed :

I'm probably going to change the format of the developer pages when I
get some time to alter things. What I will probably do is set up pages
that will be driven by a forum - the developers will post in the forum
but it will only be visible through the B3D article template. We can put
a little links box on the front page so people can see developer
updates. What I'll do is set up a separate forum that the developers can
put their posts into, but will only be accessible by them and not
everyone. We can also provide them a little 'Developers Lounge' where
they can talk with each other but the rest of the public won't see it.

Until Dave turns this into what he suggested above (and we may do further studies on how to perhaps improve on Dave's suggestion above), I loathe to change things. Hoping for your patience and the understanding that we're working on making this better.

I still prefer, however, this project to be non-interactive directly.

 

[Seiko]

I know it is difficult.

However, I've always wanted this project to be like the .plan files -- it's not meant to be "interactive" the way I'm sure a lot of you would like, and certainly not meant to be forum-based. I felt that the .plan way always was attractive to the developers who participate in it for the sole reason that it is a place that they can speak their mind and leave it at that.

I am sure that if this project started off NOT in the way it is now (forum-based) and is basically the way .plan is, your complaint (representative of a number I'm sure) would not come about.

However... I do understand what you guys want (and it is something I've thinking about too) and I have seen at least one definite evidence (Markus) that developers don't mind interacting with folks on the things they post. Dave will be working on turning this into an article-based project, which I agree to. I don't think Dave will mind me posting his little email to me, which should explain the direction this project will be headed :

I'm probably going to change the format of the developer pages when I
get some time to alter things. What I will probably do is set up pages
that will be driven by a forum - the developers will post in the forum
but it will only be visible through the B3D article template. We can put
a little links box on the front page so people can see developer
updates. What I'll do is set up a separate forum that the developers can
put their posts into, but will only be accessible by them and not
everyone. We can also provide them a little 'Developers Lounge' where
they can talk with each other but the rest of the public won't see it.

Until Dave turns this into what he suggested above (and we may do further studies on how to perhaps improve on Dave's suggestion above), I loathe to change things. Hoping for your patience and the understanding that we're working on making this better.

I still prefer, however, this project to be non-interactive directly.

Thanks Rev, understand and respect your idea. Yes I appreciate the .plan style may be nice and if the relative developers utilise the posts to keep a diary of sorts on their current work loads, ideas and views then I for one would enjoy the reads. Unfortunately I dont think they'll have the time to update on a regular basis as without a specific brief its quite difficult to turn the creative writing tap on as I'm sure many are finding. Perhaps if we give them a little nudge? I for one would love some kind of weekly update denoting when possible how a specifc piece of coding or design was going. Of course I appreciate it may not be possible or practical for a business to post internal goings on but I'm sure the relavent developers could keep it clean enough not to merit any internal concerns? Just to be greedy of course I'd love to be able to tap their minds hence the idea of being able to respond to their own posts. That way as we see Chris posting shader code people will be able to reply and discuss in detail!

Thanks again for the clarification and hint how the current idea may grow!

 

[pascal]

I agree with you Reverend that non-interactive is more atractive to developers (like .plan files). Also Dany Lepage and DeanoC are responding the questions very well

Now, the only thing I would like to see improved is the way we forum members post. I liked the way Seiko posted this thread (atention to Rev and the subject). Right now there are four Markus Maki threads, how to follow it after some time? (lets say 20 Markus Maki threads )

 

[Saem]

I think all the threads in this forum which address a specific developer should consolidated. Anyone who starts a new thread for a developer who already has a thread for him in this forum should have their's deleted. =)

For now a manual merge would be required and then throw up a sticky called rules or whatever which tells people not to start new threads if there already is one.

 

[Reverend]

Seiko, another encouragement I gave the developers to participate in this is that I told them I will not bug them to make posts regularly -- there are no schedules for them and they should not feel "pressured" to make regular posts... I want them to appreciate what I am offering them and vice versa (i.e. I will appreciate what they write regardless of how often).

I hope everyone understands this. I'm sure a lot of you wish John Carmack makes frequent .plan updates but I also know you respect him enough to not bug him to do so. I'm sure you'll accord the B3D developers the same respect in our own similar project. I also think we should appreciate the fact that the developers are actually answering your questions (something I didn't expect but I'll take this as a compliment that they respect B3D and its forum members).

PS. I knew right from the start that this must not be forum-based, as this thread is precisely the kind of thing I didn't want to encounter, but I had a choice between implementing it now in forum style, or wait until we have something along the lines expressed by Dave above -- I chose the former because the developers had already agreed to this in its basic principle and I didn't want to risk losing the "momentum" since I know what I prefer (i.e. something like Dave's suggestion) will take time.

 

[Seiko]

Seiko, another encouragement I gave the developers to participate in this is that I told them I will not bug them to make posts regularly -- there are no schedules for them and they should not feel "pressured" to make regular posts... I want them to appreciate what I am offering them and vice versa (i.e. I will appreciate what they write regardless of how often).

I hope everyone understands this. I'm sure a lot of you wish John Carmack makes frequent .plan updates but I also know you respect him enough to not bug him to do so. I'm sure you'll accord the B3D developers the same respect in our own similar project. I also think we should appreciate the fact that the developers are actually answering your questions (something I didn't expect but I'll take this as a compliment that they respect B3D and its forum members).

PS. I knew right from the start that this must not be forum-based, as this thread is precisely the kind of thing I didn't want to encounter, but I had a choice between implementing it now in forum style, or wait until we have something along the lines expressed by Dave above -- I chose the former because the developers had already agreed to this in its basic principle and I didn't want to risk losing the "momentum" since I know what I prefer (i.e. something like Dave's suggestion) will take time.

Hi Rev,
Sorry I should have clarified this line
"Perhaps if we give them a little nudge?"

I was actually alluding too, give them a hint on what to post not pressure for more or quicker postings.
Sure it's entirely up to them as to what to post but it is often difficult to get the ball rolling. We used to participate in something similiar back in the 80s for several game magazines where by we'd agreed to keep a rolling diary of a games progress or design overview etc. Now I appreciate these guys may not be interested but a blank canvas is often difficult to fill if you dont know where to begin? As developers I'd like to think their keeness for the industry and business as a whole would naturally equate to a desire to discuss, debate and enhance programming and design methods? Again I'm assuming a lot but hey, I can dream can't I?

Anyway, as you've mentioned lets see what grows from this as hopefully given time to mature it will turn into a good feature of this board.

 

[DeanoC]

I must admit, to like having the non-interactive parts seperate from the questions/answers section. It clearly makes it a personal opinion, so your can ignore most of it

For why we don't post that often, it (at least in my case) is because alot of what we do isn't that interesting. We sometimes get to do cool stuff but their is alot of normal stuff as well. A lot of what we doing isn't cool graphics or high-end but finding bugs, writing tools, making things work on TNT's etc. Their isn't alot to write about refactoring texture interfaces (what I've been doing this last week). Also we can't mention a lot of the business things that goes on, as it often involves projects that aren't official/signed yet.

 

[Seiko]

A lot of what we doing isn't cool graphics or high-end but finding bugs, writing tools, making things work on TNT's etc. Their isn't alot to write about refactoring texture interfaces (what I've been doing this last week).

Yikes, I think I'm showing my geeky(ness?) as I'd find that quite an interesting discussion but anyway I think Reverends point has been clearly made that with a split in opinions on what would be nice, achievable and worthwhile it's simply safer and wiser to leave things the way they are.

After all without the developer contributions this whole section will simply fade away and I'm sure everyone here appreciates the time you guys have taken to post and comment.

Thanks to everyone for the responses if nobody minds I think it would be safer if this thread came to a natural conclusion and stop, i.e. NOW!

 

[Reverend]

I was actually alluding too, give them a hint on what to post not pressure for more or quicker postings.

I picked the developers because I think :

1) they know the nature of this site
Even though my approach to them was a "Post whatever is on your mind, be it 3D, life or sex" (so to speak ), I have no doubt in my mind that they will post what their career is all about, and we know what those careers are

2) they are mature guys who knows that by simply approaching them I am showing my respect
Which is related to the above point