Why has the "Architecture and Products" forum turned into such a blatant anti-AMD circlejerk?

[DavidGraham]

This is precisely the wrong sort of response. You're absolutely entitled to feel that way, but expressing it in a thread is just going to derail the thread with your personal disagreements. Both this and ToTTenTranz's opening language are inevitably going to lead to crap.

Every member here can testify to my behavior of not going down to the level of personal insults and childish snarky remarks, I ignore them and move on and focus on the data in an AI like manner, I don't even like to accuse members of bias, moving goalposts, subverting facts. I don't try to mock them or scold them with funny language, even though I get exposed to that a lot, but I move on, it's a skill picked up through my medical practice, arguing with patients, mentors and professors (oral exams and tests).

Not this time though, I won't repeat the reasons as they are blatantly obvious just reading through the first post in this thread.

It serves no purpose. Don't do it. In threads, stick to facts and arguments and leave personalities out of it.

This entire thread is full of personalities and weird complaints, so weird that I don't think the PC forum has been exposed to this kind of behavior ever! I am just glad I am not the only one to see this farce for it actually is!

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Both this and ToTTenTranz's opening language are inevitably going to lead to crap.

What you mean by my opening language?

As for the rest, you're actually suggesting that name-calling using terms like "petulant child" (and then doubling-down on it) isn't overstepping the bounds?
Even if it's using the term "you're behaving like" before, you don't see the harm if I had jumped into a discussion you were having by saying "Shifty, you're behaving like a petulant child, it's frankly unacceptable to me that someone behave this way here, this is ridiculous"?



Regarding other suggestions, I can safely say I've made use of the "ignore" button. I had to use the "show ignored content" to see what you were replying to.
I guess even within this small sample you could tell I had to do it to walk away from the constant flamebaiting.

 

[ieldra]

Speaking strictly of the thread in question I don't think there have been any infractions at all frankly, and I don't expect content policing to be done by the mods.

I am curious about how both the mods and users feel about this kind of discussion though.

I could have replied to ToTTenTranz in a PM instead of doing it in the thread, I don't know what that would have achieved though.

My point is that we were still talking about something very closely related to the topic, but it was more tangential I guess.

Should discussions such as these be relegated to PMs?

Does critiquing the rationale behind an argument such as ToTTenTranz's in the thread in question contribute to the discussion?

Should I avoid arguments like these? B3D is a really nice place, most of the discussion is great and I certainly don't want to make it worse.

I've heard of the infamous console wars and threads being locked, I don't think thats a good solution and it shouldn't happen.

As long as there's no insults, no off topic posts / thread derailment and no strictly personal attacks things sort themselves out. They have in the other thread.

I don't know what other forums you guys frequent but B3D is actually very very high quality, and quite active too

 

[ieldra]

What you mean by my opening language?

As for the rest, you're actually suggesting that name-calling using terms like "petulant child" (and then doubling-down on it) isn't overstepping the bounds?
Even if it's using the term "you're behaving like" before, you don't see the harm if I had jumped into a discussion you were having by saying "Shifty, you're behaving like a petulant child, it's frankly unacceptable to me that someone behave this way here, this is ridiculous"?



Regarding other suggestions, I can safely say I've made use of the "ignore" button. I had to use the "show ignored content" to see what you were replying to.
I guess even within this small sample you could tell I had to do it to walk away from the constant flamebaiting.

Man, I am not calling you names, I'm commenting on how you post, I struggle to see how this is not a valid remark

I'm unwilling to believe you replied to CSI_PC making a perfectly reasonable remark in that manner, with that kind of obnoxious *straw man argument* without knowing fully well it would be irritating...

Come on, I'm calling a spade a spade, a hatchet a hatchet, a duck a duck...

Then the remarks about my post count, how do you expect to be taken seriously?

Then 'he/she/it'...

All this while claiming that you are being bullied and neglected by the mods, then you accuse other people of making straw man arguments - and you quote pcgamer for power consumption they never tested while arguing that Tom's data is not valid

Why were you behaving this way? Why *are* you behaving this way?

I thought you had just let it go

 

[Shifty Geezer]

What you mean by my opening language

Yes, it's a loaded title for the topic. And no, the title does not invite discussion. It invites feces-flinging from trolls and fanboys because the participants will be already mad about it if they don't agree with the suggestion in the title.

And this is only in the "architecture and products", because the thing is infesting other areas, like this ridiculous tinfoil-hatery.
Plus, all the circlejerks are being regularly, systematically and persistently maintained by the same group of 5-6 die-hard anti-AMD fanboys (and they all consistently put "likes" in each others' posts no matter how ridiculous the content is, in order to raise their presence, just like all facebook BFFs do).

It was literally me just posting "oh the prices are coming down, here's one" and the guy created an account 8 hours later just to say "that's irrelevant because they have only one in stock!!!!11oneone". Followed, of course, by instant acknowledgment from anti-AMD-circlejerking daddies #1 and #2. They just found a new BFF.

If you can't see the way this language invites negative behaviour, then that there is the problem . Yes, you're emotional about their behaviour. Speaking about it emotionally is only going to make things worse though.

As for the rest, you're actually suggesting that name-calling using terms like "petulant child" (and then doubling-down on it) isn't overstepping the bounds?
Even if it's using the term "you're behaving like" before, you don't see the harm if I had jumped into a discussion you were having by saying "Shifty, you're behaving like a petulant child, it's frankly unacceptable to me that someone behave this way here, this is ridiculous"?

'Petulant child' is a bit of an insult, but it wouldn't upset me - I've been called far worse! I also don't know the history behind that statement - for all I know you are/were behaving like a petulant child and it was a fair assessment brought to your attention to allow for self-correction. then gain, maybe there's a cadre of posters with a vendetta against you. Then again it could also be something written in one voice was read in another and interpreted aggressively. I had that recently in a console thread with some escalating emotions language...

Said in reply to me...

Well, obviously you can't read very well because I never said anything about bringing 50 W down to 15 W...However you never provided any facts or hard data that my speculation was wrong. You just wrote something about a few watts being negligible in a system that consumes 15 W at max. Good job!

Not sure why that tone was taken, but it could be because of my emphasis (italics) in my post to highlight my argument and how they were read.

My reply. Acknowledge I was wrong with muddling my arguments. Reiterate I'm just speculating/arguing. N00b's reply

No hard feelings!

Job done, moved on, no drama.

Regarding other suggestions, I can safely say I've made use of the "ignore" button. I had to use the "show ignored content" to see what you were replying to.
I guess even within this small sample you could tell I had to do it to walk away from the constant flamebaiting.

But your opening post invited the flamebaiting. If you had been emotionally detached and addressed it as a genuine concern, then the flamebaiting would obviously be them being the problem. As it is, I've no idea 'who started it' as it were. You're only being mean because they are, and they're only being mean because you are. There's not a great deal any moderators can do in this situation. There's also no way for you to get them to sort their act out and behave properly - all the insults and criticisms in the world won't get them to stop doing what it is that you hate. Only thing you can do for sure, 100% able to influence to the situation, is choose to not add fuel to the fire. Never use antagonistic language, trust that everyone here is ideally wanting to engage in intelligent discussion rather than silly bitching fests, and stick to the discussion without getting het up. And also provide constructive feedback. The point about the megathread issues is legitimate and had a reason and reply that, if raised earlier (months ago when people were expecting the threads to separated), would have seen action taken earlier, at the very least giving clarification that new threads are welcome.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Does critiquing the rationale behind an argument such as ToTTenTranz's in the thread in question contribute to the discussion?

Discussing the logic process is part of the discussion. If someone's data is flawed, it would be corrected. If their logic is flawed, it should also be corrected. That can be harder though as its less objective. Definitely point out a disagreement at how they've arrived at their conclusion, but don't hammer the point ad nauseum. In the console space, typically we get a new character every once in a while who posts circular arguments or such. Discussion turns from being helpful and well-intentioned to mocking and destructive once the pattern sets in and the direction of discussion is clearly never going to be changed. That's when the threads are locked and, often enough, characters need to be let go as not quite the right stuff for B3D.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

If you can't see the way this language invites negative behaviour, then that there is the problem . Yes, you're emotional about their behaviour. Speaking about it emotionally is only going to make things worse though.

Oh you mean the first post in the thread.
Hell yes, I was. That post is two months old, though.
And the emotional release of that member also happened two months ago, through a post in this very same thread.
I doubt DavidGraham's latest pair of posts are emotionally connected to the first post in this thread, but ok.

I also don't know the history behind that statement
(...)
Only thing you can do for sure, 100% able to influence to the situation, is choose to not add fuel to the fire. Never use antagonistic language, trust that everyone here is ideally wanting to engage in intelligent discussion rather than silly bitching fests, and stick to the discussion without getting het up.

I have literally one interaction with this user before the name-calling rampage started, and it's here:
https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/1950352/

This user started the name calling because of another argument I wasn't even having with him/her/whatever, but with someone else.
It was just pure dogpiling so I stopped all direct interaction with the user from there on.

Every member here can testify to my behavior of not going down to the level of personal insults and childish snarky remarks, I ignore them and move on and focus on the data in an AI like manner

Literally fifteen minutes earlier in the very same thread:

I see the loose canon didn't waste anytime bumping into almost every other member on the forums!

AI like manner!
I couldn't make this shit up even if I tried.

 

[CSI PC]

To be fair Tottentraz it felt like you were baiting several of us in that thread by seriously skewing our context and points such as you did with trying to say I was suggesting a negative power watt model even though I have repeatedly commented about the linear range of the nodes voltage-frequency performance envelope in the past and only mentioned 0.8V not lower, and calling me childish for bringing up the thread discussion was reminding me of the time wasted awhile ago going on about Nintendo and the NX with DMP (which felt like an argument attack from you), along this time with saying I am giving myself way too much importance.

Fingers can be pointed to many; me, you, others, but the solution is to take a step back when butting heads becomes too much, which is why my last post in that thread was Friday evening.
Cheers

 

[Razor1]

Oh you mean the first post in the thread.
Hell yes, I was. That post is two months old, though.
And the emotional release of that member also happened two months ago, through a post in this very same thread.
I doubt DavidGraham's latest pair of posts are emotionally connected to the first post in this thread, but ok.

I have literally one interaction with this user before the name-calling rampage started, and it's here:
https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/1950352/

This user started the name calling because of another argument I wasn't even having with him/her/whatever, but with someone else.
It was just pure dogpiling so I stopped all direct interaction with the user from there on.

Literally fifteen minutes earlier in the very same thread:

AI like manner!
I couldn't make this shit up even if I tried.

Problem is Tots if you read your own posts set apart from your own views and feelings, you will see a convoluted, way of saying "I'm guessing" and not even looking at what the other person has posted.

You know what, the person that has "pure Dogpiling" is you man. You did not need to start this thread. you did not need to speculate on the 1050 in perf/watt in an AMD thread. You did not need to guess, which I might add was a BAD guess based on the gm107, which I have shown numerous links to, which I ASKED you to look up. NO you are just being absolutely dismissive, and when called out you go on a "OH DADDY, HE BEAT ME UP CAN YOU PUNISH THEM THEY ARE GANGING UP ON ME". Grow a pair of balls man (so to speak), and show us how you reached your conclusions, because I can't see anywhere how you have reached any sensible conclusion based on what you have read.

I have shown you can break down a laptop TDP, I have shown you links, that you should have looked for BTW, on the TDP of the GM107 variants, in different forms.

Lets go back a few of weeks.

What you did, the same shit, I wasn't even part of the conversation.

When you called out in two different threads, that people who posted against what you have stated, posted ANTI-AMD and are swayed by nV. Which I called you out and stated why are you doing this, and don't post if you can't post rationally against the point.

I guess you don't like that? Yeah this also happened with the rx480 power issue thread.

I can go back to months, years even, and point out these things from you. Yet I do not.

You are making up a conclave of people that are against your view of AMD. Sorry if there are more people saying something in one way, That means the problem is with your views, not with the people that are posting opposite of you.

You started this thread as if you are the center of the discussion, by using the words that you have used, you are putting yourself in the middle of this conversation. Which goes to speak, this thread is not about what you posted, its about you! and YOUR feelings. Sorry but can't have a rational discussion about feelings, go see a psychiatrist. We are here to talk about tech good or bad, doesn't matter not to make you feel good about your views.

To answer your question about AMD's doing bad threads, well guess what they aren't doing that well right now that is why its like that. You were not around with the Fx series, r3xx lines, it was more Pro AMD at that time. It just happens because they have weaker products so weak that you can't deny that. You were around with the gt2xx launches don't remember how those threads went? They were pro AMD for the most part. Don't remember with the G80 was launch and then the r600? Threads were pro nV.....

You can't sit here and generalize a point and time to benefit your feelings. You were around with the gt2xxx, g80 launches, There is no way people forget about these things, unless they don't want to think about it because it doesn't support their point of view.

Just like the gameworks (game dev program) threads, its quite sad to see how they went when certain people, who don't even have experience with basic contracts, talk about these game programs and how dev's sign up and what the possibilities of what those contracts are capable of! And if they knew the basics of how contracts work, they could logically deduce what those contracts are capable of.

You can see who makes sh*t up, its easy to see it because most of us here are professionals in tech industries, that do things like partnerships, contracts etc. on a daily basis.

 

[DavidGraham]

AI like manner!
I couldn't make this shit up even if I tried.

I had to make you the exception, I moved on too many times for you, but you just kept going. I had to put a stop to it, I partially succeeded when you ignored me, obviously you don't ignore me well enough these days.

May I remind other members of an example of how a discussion with you usually goes, a thread starts with new referenced data (FuryX 4GB is not enough in 5 games), you object and post data opposite to this claim (showing adequate performance in some of them), I correct you and state how these performance levels have been attained through turning down settings, and then I add 4GB is a hindrance "NOW", after which all hell broke loose from you:

https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/will-gpus-with-4gb-vram-age-poorly.58233/page-2#post-1929777

Out of the blue, and after a civilized discussion, you break down because of the word "NOW", insults fly, and then attach some other unrelated stuff and try to form a conspiracy out of that! calling people names, calling for the Mods to exercise censorship! This is what arguing with you has been like for the past months for almost anyone, a recent reminder was when Shifty Geezer ended one of your potential rants prematurely here:

https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/the-amd-execution-gloom-thread.37641/page-230#post-1950691


It's clear you feel overly sensitive toward anything AMD related, which makes me wonder, what is the probable cause for this? you used to be way less overly sensitive! What triggered the change?

In the end, I will extend my hand, I don't hold a grudge against you, it's a waste of energy to hate somebody over a tech forum, (If ever). You and I can have a nice civilized discussion a 100 times a day, data vs data, logic vs logic, no snarky remarks, bad mouthing, mockery, wild accusations ..etc. If you can have that then, by all means, lets have it everyday. If you can't though, then the ignore function is here for you, do us both a favor and put that back on permanently.

 

[Dave Baumann]

I don't know what other forums you guys frequent but B3D is actually very very high quality, and quite active too

Then I weep for the SNR of the rest of the internet.

 

[AlNom]

Don't search Map of the Internet

 

[willardjuice]

Would you be able to take something like this not so personally?

Sorry for responding so late (I think this warrants a response), but yes! Who cares what random people on the internet think? Every time you reply to someone I want you to first ask a question: Does this person seem truly interested in developing a deeper understanding about graphics or does this person just want to be "right"/justify their purchase? I personally find the vast majority of posts in this forum to be the latter case. In those situations I highly recommend just walking away.

I'll give you an example. I've used Unity for a long time and produced many applications on many platforms with it. I would like to think I have a pretty good handle on what can be accomplished with Unity. But because digital foundry said "Unity is slow" then of course Unity must be slow. Common knowledge! Something, something garbage collection! Now I could spend countless time writing posts explaining why Unity is in fact not slow and how to make better design decisions based around the "Unity way", but why bother when the responses will just be quotes from an article? At the end of the day, I don't care what random people on the internet think about Unity. Maybe it's me but taking turns quoting articles and posting benchmarks do not lead to interesting discussions (see console forums).

You're right though I haven't done a very good job of moderation. That's on me. I guess I'm just so used to skipping over 90% of the posts here that I'm numb to it. However, there are times where you (and many others!) are clearly just doubling down. Replying to an uninteresting post with another uninteresting post will never steer the discussion back to a "better state". I highly recommend you check out the ignore function because there's a recurring theme between you and various posters. It's the same story every thread. If you need guidance on who to ignore just let me know, I've got a couple of ideas. I don't mean to single you out because as an independent quantity I don't think you're a "bad" contributor at all. However when combined with certain other "independent quantities"... ;-)

In the general sense, I really want to stress that there's nothing wrong with being just a lurker. I think many people here underestimate the value of taking information in and only posting when seeking clarification on specific points. I see a lot of broad declarations being made from people who don't seem to fully understand all the variables in the equation. As I said a few times, graphics is tough business! It's okay to admit that you don't have all the answers. I certainly don't! :smile:

TLDR: try scrolling past forum posts more, it's very effective