A library with 100 million books, of which ~70 million have a real cover and you don't find out until you get home that the pages are blank.
*ren* PSN Down, Customer Info Compromised
- Thread starter Cheezdoodles
- Start date
A library with 100 million books, of which ~70 million have a real cover and you don't find out until you get home that the pages are blank.
There is no evidence this has happened, but if it helps your case...
Is 1 year of protection against identity theft not enough? Out of interest, what would you suggest?
Except they aren't books that a person has to read through, but a computer can churn through them effortlessly. Even if 95% of the details are false, the hackers have access to 5 million real people's details, which would be a huge undertaking to collate by tracking down these people one at a time using open-source information. Why would a troublemaker try to identify me in particular online? They wouldn't without some vested interest. The chances of them wanting to find out who I am and what my bank is and then do something with that info is next to nil. But if they happen to be handed this info on a plate, suddenly they have options.
You can't dismiss the loss of information as irrelevant because it's all general knowledge that can be found elsewhere. This breech has moved everyone who's details were accessed from the unknown masses to at least the first tier of potential targets. Whether miscreants can do something nasty with this information or not, I don't know, but we can't say Sony haven't lost us anything. Their mistake (which may not have been much of a mistake, as they may have been the victims of sophisticated, unpredictable hacking, but they could have done better by encrypting ALL the information) is a significant one with potentially significant consequences. Especially the SOE CC data.
I'm not, I was just trying to put it into context - ok I failed - but then to say 100M is also wrong as we know 2/3rds of that data is noise.
This info has been 'out there' for some time now and yet we have not heard any evidence of it being used.
Yes, the correct phrase would be 'all users' and not '100 million', but the realities are the same for all users even if the numbers of affected being bandied around are inaccurate.
And there never will be. I've just bought something new with my CC from a store. If I then get an illicit hack of my card, there's no knowing if it was PSN or this transaction, or any that'll come after. Also the potential risks aren't going to be immediately apparent. Whoever has the data may take their time to find ways into people's accounts or whatever. It's not like they had access to everyone's CC to take $100 off every account. Instead they have the info to go to places like Amazon and PayPal and see if they can find ways in, or to get more info to eventually take over a person's digital identity completely. and knowing everyone's getting free identity protection for a year, the hackers may just sit on the data for 366 days before making a move on it when this is all forgotten.
There's no way of knowing what the outcome will actually be, if any. All we do know for sure is Sony lost the data in their care, both due to a malicious outside force, and a lack of effective security on their part. They shoulder some of the blame and it's only fair they put up some recompense. At the same time Sony are reporting a loss of over a billion bucks this year. Suggestions that they should give hundreds of millions of dollars away to make amends just don't fit with their finances, given this and previous years' struggles. Sony can't afford a loss leader.
I dunno mate, there's 2 ways to look at this - the longer they sit on the data then the longer folk have to replace cards and change passwords - also people move & change emails (etc) so in effect the data becomes less useful with each passing day.
I agree there's no way to pin anything on the PSN data - however, I would expect some sort of 'spike' in such things happening...this would not be evidence but it'd be a heck of a co-incidence.
WRT giving a 'loss leader' I agree but maybe they could have given folk the option of the games or XX amount in credit with note that the money could not be withdrawn from the PSN account...Sony make money on the 3rd party games sold so it wouldn't be £ for £ and as suggested, many might just blow it on themes or never spend it!
I agree there's no way to pin anything on the PSN data - however, I would expect some sort of 'spike' in such things happening...this would not be evidence but it'd be a heck of a co-incidence.
WRT giving a 'loss leader' I agree but maybe they could have given folk the option of the games or XX amount in credit with note that the money could not be withdrawn from the PSN account...Sony make money on the 3rd party games sold so it wouldn't be £ for £ and as suggested, many might just blow it on themes or never spend it!
Already answered this, Sony just checks which accounts have been used to play online and make psn purchases, those accounts get credited. Accounts that never went online and never bought anything off psn are considered dummy accounts, they don't get anything.
Companies price things based on regions all the time, adjusting credits per region is nothing new, no clue why you would view this as a challenge.
Yup because it's something everyone can use, unlike what they are offering now which is just a psn+ advertisement and some old games, useless to many.
not much in one year though, and that's not the main issue. A change of emails and CC cards won't necessarily be enough to mitigate the info.
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=21697
yes another sony server breach , lets throw them a party for how awsome they are ! Yay !
yes another sony server breach , lets throw them a party for how awsome they are ! Yay !
Nothing wrong with eastmen's post. It is news after all and is another indication of the hackers going after Sony.
It was a big mistake for Sony to personally go after geohot and graff. If anything, they should've gone after the Backup manager developers and those uploading the pirated games.
It was a big mistake for Sony to personally go after geohot and graff. If anything, they should've gone after the Backup manager developers and those uploading the pirated games.
The damage to users varies. The 'welcome back' package is not only for the inconvinience for the active users of being offline for just about a month, but also because there is some damage by customer information getting out. What's causing major upset isn't particularly the down time, but email addresses, personal information, risk of identity theft.
Dummy account or not, even if a PSN has registered 4 users, they could just as well be 4 independent users using that PlayStation, some more than others. I'm not sure distinguishing between a 'dummy' account and a real one is that easy as by simply looking at access times, IP etc. If you exclude potential dummy accounts of your welcome back package, you run the risk to gain negative publicity again, by affecting 'real' users that don't use the PS3 that often. Then, there's also the PSP, an affected platform. I have one, and while I am registered on PSN and have made some purchases (a good 2 years ago), the PSP is *never* online. If Sony decided to exclude this account due to it being a 'dummy account' - I'd be seriously pissed because my data was breached just as everyone elses regardless of my 'online play time'.
So at the end of the day, the risk probably outweighs the benefit, so you're ending up paying all accounts anyway, hoping that 'dummy accounts' don't use their credits in the first place.
So how much do you give?
We don't even want to start with 10 dollars as it's a useless amount, as you couldn't even buy a half decent game on PSN for that money (I think most good games start at 12 or 14 dollars). At 15 dollars that's what - 50 million potential accounts (I'm not even using the full 75 million 'affected' number here) - 750 million USD uncontrolled credits (that's purely assuming dollars, the rest of the world would need a higher amount since the games are priced higher there too). Sure, it's not a full loss, since not all of that would get used and not every game is a full loss, maybe not even a third. But that loss extends to new released games on PSN.
And I'm not sure 15 dollars of credit is particularly good value. From any PR point of view, 4 games out of a list of 9 games (PS3 + PSP) sounds immensly better than 15 dollars per user, even if you run the risk that a small percentage of PSN users actually own all of these games already. These PSN users are probably loyal to the platform anyway if they already have all those games.
What's clear though is that this entire debacle has cost Sony (as I said, they're a victim too!) huge amount of money. Then adding another 750 million+ USD (potentially more or less) to that number is maybe something Microsoft could afford. Not to mention that from a PR perspective the 4 games does sound like a lot better deal == nets a better perception to the broad public. If you want to do a better deal by credits, then you're looking at at least 30 dollars (worth 2 games).... you do the math.
PS3 + PSP have both sold what 115 million together (50 + 65 accoarding to Wikipedia)? From the 75 million 'affected accounts', I'd say at least 50 million across both platforms could be considered real users, with active accounts. Regardless how many credits you wish to reward your users == huge loss.
I'm curious how Sony is saying the security breach will cost $2 per account, the game credits in the welcome back package seem to be worth more than that...
So for those people that are pissed that their information has been leaked, do you think they would be happy and forgiving by being given compensation that is of no value to them? What you are saying if anything points to the idea that Sony should have really tried to appease everyone if that many people are pissed, instead of leaving who knows how many of them out on the cold.
Wait, let me see if I get this right. You'd be pissed if your account was excluded from compensation because of it being deemed a dummy account...yet when someone else gets pissed at the provided compensation because they don't care about any of the games supplied or don't care about psn+ (and hence the compensation is useless effectively excluding them), then they are still supposed to be happy? By your own logic there are probably legions of people out there "seriously pissed" because they were effectively excluded. At least now using your own psp analogy you have an idea of how many Sony users feel right now. Credits would have avoided that.
There's no way you and me can come up with a number on a forum. Look at Microsoft points, they are engineered to always leave just enough in your account to not be able to buy something without having to add more. That's not by chance and takes time to come to a number that leads to that scenario. Same with monetary compensation, there surely is a magic number that won't financially brutalize the company yet at the same time at least give everyone something, and at the same time possibly encourage them in the process both to come back to psn and put their credit card information back, and to add more money to get that dlc, etc that perhaps they fall just short of with the credit alone. It doesn't all have to be financial hardship, companies sell items at a loss all the time with the intent of making it back elsewhere from the same customer, this isn't a new thing and Sony could have done the same and earned some good will in the process.
I do not think your numbers fit the situation. It's not like the RROD fiasco where they had no choice but to drop a fortune in cash to fix broken hardware, that's a totally different situation. Here's we're talking about digital good, and in that realm there are many ways to engineer things where you give credits away and yet still make profit in the process, if at a minimum to encourage people to enter in their credit card data back into psn.
Except that retooling their network isn't going to be free so regardless there will be some actual cost associated with fixing the breach.
Joker,
My angle in this has always been that the 'welcome gift' is adequate. You've been the one here constantly implying that fans are arguing that anyone should be greatful. There's a difference. You're the one here arguing that offering credits would be a lot better. I clearly disagree and included some numbers to play with to underline why it's not a good idea, heck why it isn't feasable. Don't like the numbers? Change them.
Fact is, we don't know the numbers. Sony does. We can only assume. PSP and PS3 have been sold 115 million together. That's a fact. Up to 75 million accounts have been compromised. I take that as fact, as that number is directly from Sony. We know there are dummy accounts outthere, but as by the nature of how the PSP integrates into the network, distiniguishing dummy accounts from real accounts is next to impossible. Also a fact. Regardless how the accounts are used, the 'welcome gift' is not only for the downtime of active users, but also and especially because of their breached information. In that sense, everyone should be entitled to the 'welcome package'. That makes the number 75 million accounts.
You seem to be under the impression that some magical amount of credit exist that Sony could right off as loss to give to its customers as a welcome package instead. I provided a ball park figure based off what PSN titles cost that would be seen as 'a good' deal. That makes the number at least 15 dollars. 15 dollars * 75 million accounts = 1125 million dollars. Even if only half the users actually use this, you're still at well over 500 million USD.
Lets be fair, 15 dollars isn't a great deal. It doesn't sound good and for that money, you can only get one game. If you lower the amount to less than 10 dollars, you're indirectly forcing your users to re-register or use a creditcard (some won't even own a creditcard) to even get some value out of that welcome gift. Most accounts however don't have a creditcard associated to them - they use PSN for free and for its free content. To these people who don't own or want to use their creditcard on PSN (especially not after such a breach), your welcome package of under 10 dollars is WORTHLESS. (Just think about the media frenzy this would create too!)
If you offer more than 15 dollars, every added dollar accounts for another 75 million more potential uncontrolled credits.
The alternative is to do exactly what Sony did. Offer 4 games out of 9 on two affected platforms. The likelyhood of a substantial amount of users owning all the offered titles on their platform is slim, the number marginal. I'm an avid customers on PSN and I only own 3 out of the 5 on the PS3. Truthfully, I'm not particularly interested in the 2 games I don't own, but am willing to give them a chance - it's free afterall. Why wouldn't I? That gives it at the very least some value.
How many out of the 75 million affected own all these games? Given that only a small amount of users have a registered creditcard on PSN and buy games, the number of customers owning every single game is even smaller.
Value is something relative and subjective. To some this package is great, to others not so. My point, is that it's at least of some value to the majority of PSN users. I'm sure there are some that are less happy, people that do own all of these games already, but common-sense tells me that there aren't that many of them. And given their investment on the PSN platform, I'm willing to assume that they could be considered loyal customers - in other words, Sony isn't too afraid of losing them.
You want to stick to your belief that giving credits is better? Give an educated guess how much you'd give and calculate the potential loss to Sony while you're at it. My simple point is, to beat the 4 games of a selected limited list (that's probably of some value to most), you'd have to offer credits in the amount that is above what Sony can realistically afford.
Your last point, I'll quote
"Here's we're talking about digital good, and in that realm there are many ways to engineer things where you give credits away and yet still make profit in the process, if at a minimum to encourage people to enter in their credit card data back into psn. -- Joker454"
is where I think you're completely under wrong assumptions. PSN is a free platform. Most of its users (the ones affected by the breach) are people that simply use the platform free. It's not like Live where you need to pay in the first place to use it, hence most people on the platform already have a creditcard associated to them. To get an already registered creditcard user to add another amount to your 'welcome package' is easier than to get someone who never registered a creditcard on PSN in the first place to do so to get some value out of his 'welcome gift'. Especially not right after the Platform has been breached with reports of creditcard information getting out. And you would think such a deal would gain better PR and more happy customers?
My angle in this has always been that the 'welcome gift' is adequate. You've been the one here constantly implying that fans are arguing that anyone should be greatful. There's a difference. You're the one here arguing that offering credits would be a lot better. I clearly disagree and included some numbers to play with to underline why it's not a good idea, heck why it isn't feasable. Don't like the numbers? Change them.
Fact is, we don't know the numbers. Sony does. We can only assume. PSP and PS3 have been sold 115 million together. That's a fact. Up to 75 million accounts have been compromised. I take that as fact, as that number is directly from Sony. We know there are dummy accounts outthere, but as by the nature of how the PSP integrates into the network, distiniguishing dummy accounts from real accounts is next to impossible. Also a fact. Regardless how the accounts are used, the 'welcome gift' is not only for the downtime of active users, but also and especially because of their breached information. In that sense, everyone should be entitled to the 'welcome package'. That makes the number 75 million accounts.
You seem to be under the impression that some magical amount of credit exist that Sony could right off as loss to give to its customers as a welcome package instead. I provided a ball park figure based off what PSN titles cost that would be seen as 'a good' deal. That makes the number at least 15 dollars. 15 dollars * 75 million accounts = 1125 million dollars. Even if only half the users actually use this, you're still at well over 500 million USD.
Lets be fair, 15 dollars isn't a great deal. It doesn't sound good and for that money, you can only get one game. If you lower the amount to less than 10 dollars, you're indirectly forcing your users to re-register or use a creditcard (some won't even own a creditcard) to even get some value out of that welcome gift. Most accounts however don't have a creditcard associated to them - they use PSN for free and for its free content. To these people who don't own or want to use their creditcard on PSN (especially not after such a breach), your welcome package of under 10 dollars is WORTHLESS. (Just think about the media frenzy this would create too!)
If you offer more than 15 dollars, every added dollar accounts for another 75 million more potential uncontrolled credits.
The alternative is to do exactly what Sony did. Offer 4 games out of 9 on two affected platforms. The likelyhood of a substantial amount of users owning all the offered titles on their platform is slim, the number marginal. I'm an avid customers on PSN and I only own 3 out of the 5 on the PS3. Truthfully, I'm not particularly interested in the 2 games I don't own, but am willing to give them a chance - it's free afterall. Why wouldn't I? That gives it at the very least some value.
How many out of the 75 million affected own all these games? Given that only a small amount of users have a registered creditcard on PSN and buy games, the number of customers owning every single game is even smaller.
Value is something relative and subjective. To some this package is great, to others not so. My point, is that it's at least of some value to the majority of PSN users. I'm sure there are some that are less happy, people that do own all of these games already, but common-sense tells me that there aren't that many of them. And given their investment on the PSN platform, I'm willing to assume that they could be considered loyal customers - in other words, Sony isn't too afraid of losing them.
You want to stick to your belief that giving credits is better? Give an educated guess how much you'd give and calculate the potential loss to Sony while you're at it. My simple point is, to beat the 4 games of a selected limited list (that's probably of some value to most), you'd have to offer credits in the amount that is above what Sony can realistically afford.
Your last point, I'll quote
"Here's we're talking about digital good, and in that realm there are many ways to engineer things where you give credits away and yet still make profit in the process, if at a minimum to encourage people to enter in their credit card data back into psn. -- Joker454"
is where I think you're completely under wrong assumptions. PSN is a free platform. Most of its users (the ones affected by the breach) are people that simply use the platform free. It's not like Live where you need to pay in the first place to use it, hence most people on the platform already have a creditcard associated to them. To get an already registered creditcard user to add another amount to your 'welcome package' is easier than to get someone who never registered a creditcard on PSN in the first place to do so to get some value out of his 'welcome gift'. Especially not right after the Platform has been breached with reports of creditcard information getting out. And you would think such a deal would gain better PR and more happy customers?
I agree with pretty much everything you've said, and the credit point is a very good one. There were 10 million registered CCs in 75 million accounts. Clearly the majority of users who have their data compromised are not PSN content purchasers. A credit they cannot use wouldn't go down well. $5 to spend on themes wouldn't be anything like as appreciated as a whole game such as LBP or Infamous. However, I disagree with the one above quoted point. You and Joker are on opposite sides, and I sit somewhere in the middle. I agree Sony couldn't have been as free and flexible in their compensation as effectively giving everyone free money, but they could have extended the range of titles at next-to-no extra cost beyond the 5 PS3 titles on offer to give a wider choice. That would please more people than the current deal has, while not costing what a free credit as Joker suggests would, which seems a better compromise. Although Joker will say a finite list of titles may have no value for some customers, I think the greater majority by far would be acceptable given the circumstances.
The way I see it:
Current solution - benefits ~80% of PS3 owners - little cost to Sony
Joker's solution - benefits ~100% of PS3 owners - unaffordable cost to Sony
My solution - benefits ~95% of PS3 owners - little cost beyond current solution
Obviously the percentage figures are entirely made up by myself, and if Sony can be confident that a very high percentage of PS3 owners are satisfied with the 5 games on offer, they may feel that's okay. But me personally, I'd want those avid fans, the key platform supporters, to feel satisfied too, and I'd stretch a little to offer them something rather than just going by a heartless metric. I think the goodwill of such a gesture is worth it.
I honestly find it hard to believe - in this day and age - there would be no way of telling if 'all of a sudden' more accounts were being hacked. It would only take for one service to notice an sharp upward trend and pass this info on.
But my suggestion is that this is an additional offer which will probably be taken up by a small minority who are unhappy with the games on offer...couple that with Jokers suggestion the it wouldn't be so bad (esp. as there's also a chance people would just give it straight back to Sony anyway).
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