Range of graphics effects in console games *spawn

[L. Scofield]

Ummm no.

"Hadn't any better tech" I might give you, this is harder to argue; but Gears was in a whole new visual league by itself; they practically invented the gray-and-gritty-and-detailed artistic look; they were one of the first games to really make normal maps count; they had some fantastic texture unwrapping work allowing them to fit much more detail on the screen than anyone else. The tech that the Gears _artist_ had at their disposal at that time was miles ahead of any other art toolchain, and this showed.

You're talking about usability of their tools rather of actual graphical accomplishments. Characters certainly use normal maps well, but in many regards its technically inferior to PDZ. For example, the high res look of the textures in GeoW comes from detail maps instead of actual high res textures. There's no POM (if there is, its negligible), HDR is awful, only camera based motion blur...

 

[nightshade]

Gears didn't had any sort of HDR at all. In any case the factory level from Gears of War and this multiplayer map in particular called Bulletmarsh give a very good idea of just how advanced the rendering engine was for its time.

And yea I concur, POM in PDZ was cheesy and they did went overboard with it along with specularity.

 

[Sigfried1977]

Holy crap, that's awful. You must be kidding. You can't label a graphic effect such as parallax mapping as cheesy.

Hell yes I can. Nothing wrong with the effect itself, but in Kameo's and especially PDZ's cases it looks overdone and just plain wrong. It's an effect for the effect's sake, just like the ridiculous amount of specularity. I would sue the brick mason responsible for a wall like that. It's like the tesselated road in that Unigine tech demo: kinda cool from a technical perspective, but in a real life situation I would be afraid to leave the house in fear of spraining my ankles.

 

[_phil_]

but in many regards its technically inferior to PDZ. There's no POM (if there is, its negligible), HDR is awful, only camera based motion blur...

'Many' is a great overstatement .It's only POM ,and it's not really a complicated thing to do.

PDZ was an xbox game up to 80% completion.Same for Kameo.Not really a big deall to take a last gen game , you suddenly have a hell more ressources ,you easily can add POM to upgrade it.
POM hasn't been much used later because there is better ways to use the ressources it costs .

 

[KKRT]

I wholeheartedly agree on the new Motorstorm, judging by the videos I watched, most objects of the scenery look like a pile of squared, very sharp and angular boxes destroying all the time. It feels like it's a generation behind compared to the first game of the series.

I still remember people bragging about the original Motorstorm -post trailer, ingame graphics-, how great it looked and how it showed PS3's capabilities.

This Motorstorm 1 pic is pretty self explanatory. The mud texture is simply amazing.

There will be mud in Motorstorm 3, and mud in Motorstorm 2 looked exacly the same as pic above.

 

[Arwin]

There's footage out there of a level where the cars drive through gardens and parks in the city. They show that the tech in the game definitely hasn't deteriorated from MS2. I'm willing to bet that there is a difference between what you'll see in 3D and 2D, but I'm also fairly certain they've been doing more tech improvements vs MS2's engine required for getting 3D to hit acceptable framerates.

As far as comments on MS1 looking better than MS2 in any way whatsover, that's a little hard to take seriously imho, having played both games tens of hours ...

 

[Neb]

Dont forget there are 2 types of parallax mapping. Parallax Mapping and Parallax Occlusion Mapping the later being superior and more costly but looks correct from pretty much any angle. There is also other methods that might be superior (according to devs and it works with AF) to both like in Two Worlds 2. Dunno if console version does it to in Two Worlds 2.

Here is regular parallax mapping in Oblivion (mod).
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w193/NebulasPhotoPocket/OB13.jpg

Here is POM in Call of PRipyat.
http://www.abload.de/img/copxfz5.jpg

2 screenshots showing it of by Homerdog.
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6340/screendx100006.jpg
http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/4877/screendx100005.jpg

If you scroll down in this article you have a POM on/off showcase.
http://www.pcgameshardware.de/aid,7...s-Kantenglaettung/Rollenspiel-Adventure/Test/

 

[L. Scofield]

'Many' is a great overstatement .It's only POM ,and it's not really a complicated thing to do.

PDZ was an xbox game up to 80% completion.Same for Kameo.Not really a big deall to take a last gen game , you suddenly have a hell more ressources ,you easily can add POM to upgrade it.
POM hasn't been much used later because there is better ways to use the ressources it costs .

So what did Gears add to the table that makes it so much better?

 

[_phil_]

Dont forget there are 2 types of parallax mapping.

There is at least 10-12...

 

[Neb]

There is at least 10-12...

Interesting. Are they some of them slight modifications of 'base' algorithm or completly different approaches?

 

[_phil_]

The full range of approaches , from simple uv perspective tweak to full pixel shader raytracing.
POM was a kind of Goldrush 3-4 years ago.

 

[_phil_]

So what did Gears add to the table that makes it so much better?

UE3 can do Paralax mapping.If there isn't any in their games , you can guess there's reasons why:
trade off and ressources usage priority (and for some artists you can add artistic consideration on the top of that as the last nail on the cofin).

 

[patsu]

There's footage out there of a level where the cars drive through gardens and parks in the city. They show that the tech in the game definitely hasn't deteriorated from MS2. I'm willing to bet that there is a difference between what you'll see in 3D and 2D, but I'm also fairly certain they've been doing more tech improvements vs MS2's engine required for getting 3D to hit acceptable framerates.

As far as comments on MS1 looking better than MS2 in any way whatsover, that's a little hard to take seriously imho, having played both games tens of hours ...

I remember MS2 has noticeably better lighting overall (yes, more realistic), loads faster, fire and water effects that affect gameplay (in addition to some mud), and larger scale. I didn't notice degraded mud in the game. It looks like Cyan is only criticizing specific effects.

Also art may not be tied to technicality. I like the art direction in KZ2. Doesn't really matter if the bricks don't stand out that much, or don't look wet/waxy. Most KZ2 Helghast buildings are dirty/dusty concrete, metal and outdoor is desert anyways. I also like Monet, but his paintings are a blurry mess.

 

[DeadlyNinja]

There is at least 10-12...

So did PD0 and Kameo use parallax mapping or parallax occlusion mapping? I was pretty use those games use PM and not POM.

 

[Blazkowicz]

Crytek wanted to add many features to Crysis 2, but consoles can't run them all, or the quality of those effects is probably downgraded in comparison to PCs.

r_PostProcessEffects="1" This one works on consoles, which gives a more natural touch to the overall image, and it's also activated along with colourgrading.

this looks like to me a countermeasure for the displays set at 9300K temperature .
I've checked an "ON" definitevely looks better than "OFF" at 9300K, but "OFF" looks better than on at 6500K. or I don't know.
the colour filter does make contrast better just like yellow tinted glasses for people with eye conditions or night driving.

 

[ct03]

but "OFF" looks better than on at 6500K. or I don't know.

Absolutely. ON is way too warm.

 

[Sigfried1977]

UE3 can do Paralax mapping.If there isn't any in their games , you can guess there's reasons why:
trade off and ressources usage priority (and for some artists you can add artistic consideration on the top of that as the last nail on the cofin).

Pretty sure Gears actually had it in a couple of spots.

 

[nightshade]

Nope neither of the Gears games use parallax mapping.

 

[Sigfried1977]

Hm, I was almost sure I spotted in Level 4 (Gears 1) Well, if it wasn't there it certainly had me fooled (I remember spinning the camera around, marvelling at the protruding bricks in the wall and how they seemed to maintain a correct perspective regardless of the viewing angle), so I guess job well done.

 

[MJP]

I

Labels are just words that people use to describe some things. If you don't like the effect, then don't label it. However, it's unfair to tell people who find those effects stunning that they shouldn't be used simply because you personally think such things are cheesy and unnecessary.

It's obvious the game looks better with Parallax Mapping.

"Cheesy" was just in regards to the way Rare used it, where it looks like the bricks are about to pop out of the wall.

My point regarding parallax mapping and pretty much any other decently expensive effect, is that you can't just consider it in a vacuum and say "well it makes things look better". If you're developing a game, you have to carefully consider the performance you spend on parallax mapping or any other feature, and decide whether it's really worth it in terms of bang for your buck. Doing parallax mapping (particularly with proper occlusion) is pretty expensive on consoles and requires a lot of fragment shader cycles. And while it looks cool up close, most of the time it won't be noticeable and a simple normal map will get the same look at a fraction of the cost. And so it's not surprising a lot of developers choose to spend their cycles elsewhere.

I don't think you're being particularly fair, because you've decided that developers are somehow hypocrites because they (and most of the people who play their games) don't judge their graphics by the same standards you use.