R520 benchmarks - Hardware Analysis

[Arty]

If these emails are real and undoctored Andrzej hasn't been as forthcoming as he has been saying. When did PR become a pissing and lieing matching?

I dont see anything in those emails that proves Andrzej wrong. It is more "my gf this, that" which in honestly we didnt care and needed to know.

 

[Dreamweaver]

Been watching this but not commented yet.

However - despite the surrounding circumstances - what it all really comes down to is how reliable those figures you presented are (or better said were), for a pre-production R520 board.

I don't think this has anything to do or depend upon the accuracy of those benches anymore, in fact this has gone beyond them to principles and conduct now. SS clearly has an axe to grind with ATI and the way it was delivered was just plain wrong, the last thing I think SS should have done is release those emails, it did nothing for me but to verify Andrzeys account of things and show off just how either 1. cheeky or 2. egotistical SS really is.

J

 

[Druga Runda]

my prediction - what is going to come out of all of this?

1 - journos/hacks being much more carefull what they write to ATI and how they behave in order not to rock the boat & keep the privileges

2 - ATI being more carefull (and I assume not leak e-mails in the future), I'd expect somebody is bound to get a big slap for that one in the organization (unless the sense of "how good marketing move that was" prevails in the org)

3 - overall, bleh, as long as R520 comes out right for ATI all will be fine

4 - Hardware Analysis will be remembered as THAT site that leaked (wrong/right) R520 info

5 - this will be remembered as the most exciting launch ever, even beating NV30 by small margin

 

[dizietsma]

This is not the first and will not be the last email correspondence to get out of hand, at least none of the participants claimed they had 5 boyfriends and that the others figure was terrible.

 

[Razor1]

I dont see anything in those emails that proves Andrzej wrong. It is more "my gf this, that" which in honestly we didnt care and needed to know.

He only told us about certian circumstances depending on his point of view which showed what he did in a good light, its called a white lie, not telling us everything, in turn made the other party look like they were lieing about what had happened, which was not the case, Sanders told us exactly what the emails entialed without releasing them in thier entirity right from the beginning.

But yes Sanders still has to show us the benchmark scripts.

 

[R300King!]

And I've been up all night reading all this SSander stuff. I swear to God someone is putting crack in these threads, I just can't stop reading them. Someone drag me away from the monitor please.

 

[Arty]

He only told us about certian circumstances depending on his point of view which showed what he did in a good light, its called a white lie, not telling us everything, in turn made the other party look like they were lieing about what had happened, which was not the case, Sanders told us exactly what the emails entialed without releasing them in thier entirity right from the beginning.

But yes Sanders still has to show us the benchmark scripts.

Reading those emails in their entirety & context doesnt change the situation much.

Andrezj said that Sander declined his previous invites so there isnt much new that this new "article" brings up to notice.

Not inviting him to this Tech Day is a direct result of his response to the last invitation that I sent him

 

[neliz]

5 - this will be remembered as the most exciting launch ever, even beating NV30 by small margin

Cool, will TOM post video's of the audible terror of R520's cooling solution? compared to a GTX?

 

[Geo]

My guess for the game: 10,140

Now, can we start a game for guessing date of release of 90nm NV top-end?

I'm getting a sense that "7800 Ultra" could only reduce the gap to less embarrassing proportions. . .

 

[xGL]

To be brutally honest, having read this document, you come off as being hugely unprofessional in some of those e-mails, joking or otherwise. Having dealt with a fair few IHV and AIB contacts myself (Including Andrzej) I know that I would never dream of making some of the comments seen in your response in any shape or form - I like a joke as much as the next man, but I'd also like to think I know where to draw the line. It seems that you crossed that line, to the point where a simple apology wasn't enough, and now you've exacerbated that issue by producing this current debacle.

Same here.

Although I believe both parties did some things which were not correct ethically, I understand Andrzej's point of view.

After being very friendly with ATi (to the point that they appeared to have asked you to give speeches at their conferences), Sander lost his focus and mistook them for "my best buddies with whom I can crack all kinds of jokes" and decided to pull out jokes at their expense.

Problem is, a company with whom you have press relations (or any other business relations for that matter) is not your best buddy to play around with.

He's not your high school classmate, but rather a business partner.

The wording was simply not appropriate (nor is the joke either - the landfill joke was totally out of place).

As Andrzej put it, the relationship is based on mutual business benefits : "we bring our products, information and personnel to the table - and we ask in return is a route to market". He was very clear : it is a business relationship, not a full fledged friendship. Any clearer and he'd be invisible.

I doubt Andrzej appreciated the "In an effort to get us back on the right track I'd like to propose you get me a R520 prior to the launch" as it ressembles a heavy handed tactic to get what you want when Andrzej was clearly not in the wrong.

I do not have any relations with all these companies (ATI, NV, etc.) like you do. However, I do know this : making bold statements and bad jokes at someone's expense is not the best way to maintain a relationship, let alone a business relationship.

The bottom line is this :

When you want to pull a joke... don't.

If you can't help it, use emoticons.

 

[John Reynolds]

I'm not about to visit the site to try and find out, but after reading Sander's laughable--laughable in the sense that he doesn't seem to connect that it only weakened his case and proved him to be even more manifestly unprofessional than before (love that the last page is titled "logic")--martyr tract I'm wondering if he uses an nForce 4 chipset when testing AMD parts? If so, it's ok for NVIDIA to branch out to core logic chipsets but not ATI?

 

[Max1]

And I've been up all night reading all this SSander stuff. I swear to God someone is putting crack in these threads, I just can't stop reading them. Someone drag me away from the monitor please.

Mega ROFLOL.

same here !!!!

 

[Sxotty]

Is someone making you be here against your will? Who is this mean person?

Exactly, to all those that complain about the useless nature of this, you are not required to read it. That includes you John reynolds

 

[Firefox]

If these emails are real and undoctored Andrzej hasn't been as forthcoming as he has been saying. When did PR become a pissing and lieing matching?

It simply depends on how you interpret Sanders remarks in those emails... some will consider them jokes (as they probably were as Sander claims), but others would consider them inappropriate... and again others will say they have an underlying (negative) tone.

From the emails I read, I could conclude that Andrzej interpreted them as with underlying tone - or started interpreting them like that after a while. Looking back, it's too bad he didn't immediately discuss this with Sander to clear things up.

So all of this depends on point of view, and I can see both points of view here... As I already stated: in my opinion both are right... and both are wrong.

As of the misquote about "dropping the stock prices"... I must say I am disappointed here too, I would have expected ATi to approach this more professionally. Being a PR department, you often have to juggle with half and whole thruths, but I'm of opinion that you should refrain from juggling with have and whole lies...
Unless I'm again misinterpreting things or information is missing. Andrzej, should be able to clear that up.

 

[Razor1]

Reading those emails in their entirety & context doesnt change the situation much.

Andrezj said that Sander declined his previous invites so there isnt much new that this new "article" brings up to notice.

the threat was a supposed joke for a 5.8 cat shimmering article, not for r520 launch invite, which parts of these emails where cut and pasted and sent to DH

Thats as dispicable as Sanders if he lied about the benchmarks.

 

[John Reynolds]

Exactly, to all those that complain about the useless nature of this, you are not required to read it. That includes you John reynolds.

To clarify my earlier railings, I'm not against letting Sander tighten that noose around his neck so much as watching all the little f@nboys writing their screeds and get into pissing matches with each other. That's the crap in particular I don't want to read, especially from all the new posters drawn here by this little drama.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Wow, I just finished reading Sander's swan song and I am even less impressed with him than I was yesterday.

Why the little "CONCLUSIONS" on the bottom of each page? They sounded just awful to me, full of self-justification and self-pity.

I'm actually embarressed for SS after reading that.

 

[Arty]

the threat was a supposed joke for a 5.8 cat shimmering article, not for r520 launch invite, which parts of these emails where cut and pasted and sent to DH

Thats as dispicable as Sanders if he lied about the benchmarks.

I took that threat in regards to the shimmering article. (If you bothered to note the "time" in the email and the time the shimmering article was posted)

I wouldnt go out on a limb to say they were lies.

 

[Andrzej]

...are the emails...

The emails that I have read seem to be true - specifically the part where I tell Sander that we should 'forget this for now - catch up with each other at CeBIT - I will buy him a beer and we can talk about how best to go forward'

I can't do more than that with anyone

However, the fact that he has left out plenty of communication is no surprise

Sander's problem is that he says he will write a column that is designed to be damaging - then he writes such an article - now he wants the world to believe that the two are not actually linked - and that the motivational force was some 'search for truth'

Some points worth going back on include:-

Overclocking: Sander has told me that he holds patents on OC technology - I have no idea if he can build systems at all - but I try and take people at face value - so we thought we would give him a chance

CrossFire: Sander left this email out He specifcially told me that 'mainboards are B-O-R-I-N-G' and that he was absolutely not interested in working with us on it. He also told me that Xpress 200 did not exist and that we had shipped them all to a landfill site. At this point I decided that I would prioritise press who were interested in engaging with us on all roadmaps (this bit he has left in - now you can see why it makes sense)

No Invitation: I told Sander on 8th that he was not invited - he retaliated with a direct threat - that was the point at which I suggested that we 'stand back from each other' until CeBIT. As I have already stated, I will not be strong-armed and threatening to post 'damaging stories' wil automatically make me pull back from a relationship

September 16th: Story goes live - I decide that 'no response' is the best way forward because the whole thing (results - premise etc) is laughable and I only began to react to Sander's diatribe on various forums once he began launching attacks with no basis in fact

ATI Friendly Press: This is positiely laughable. We will have a massive cross-section of press at our Tech Day + loads more publications getting briefed before the launch itself. One of the largest nVidia fan sites in the world is being brought over to the briefing - all expenses paid - because that is how much confidence we have in the product.

There is only one thing that Sander said that I can agree with 100% - and that is that we should now leave this subject alone.

Our results will speak for themselves.

Free publicity for R520 has reached epidemic proportions (courtesy of Sander's erroneous review - thanks !)...

...and we are getting healthy discussion of the way that R520 will be matching up against 7800 GTX - which is a good thing


However, when I read his front page posting, it stuck me that the poor guy sounds tired...

...and the last thing any of us wants is for him to fall asleep on the job

 

[xGL]

One of the largest nVidia fan sites in the world is being brought over to the briefing - all expenses paid - because that is how much confidence we have in the product.

NVITALIA ?