R520 benchmarks - Hardware Analysis

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Sxotty

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Hardware Analysis r520 scores x1800xt+pro

http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/article/1813.1/

I didn't see this before. I has scores of x1800xt and if they are real it does not seem rosy in ATI land

Considering the fact that we’ve used a top-of-the-line AMD Athlon FX57 processor, with 1GB of OCZ DDR400 memory on the popular Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe motherboard your mileage may vary, we honestly don’t know how these cards will do in a lower spec-ed system.
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This has been posted several times(and locked even), and there is already a huge discussion going on in another thread.
 
Well dogonit people should use more informative descriptions in their threads.

And btw putting it in the middle of a 70 page thread is silly. I searched for hardware analysis but that was not to be found Anyway I still think they should allow this its own thread.

Although seeing how it seems to be a hoax I guess not. Perhaps in 3d industry forum and talking about the reasons why websites do hoaxes anyway. Does it show they have decided that they might as well close their doors? Since noone will trust them after...
 
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I don't use to make public behind the scene dark stuff, but I don't like receiving emails from guys stating I'm ATI-biased and that I talked about the shimmering issue on 7800GTX because of an ATI PDF (which is what Sander suggested in a previous column while it's definitely not the case). So here is something fun :

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sander Sassen - Hardware Analysis

> Sent: 08 September 2005 09:39
> To: Andrzej Bania
> Subject: Re: Editors Day
>
> So you're telling me I'm not invited is that it? I feel an ATI column
> coming
> up, lets see if we can drop the stock price shall we?
>
> Sander Sassen
> http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andrzej Bania"
> To: "Sander Sassen - Hardware Analysis"
> Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 10:37 AM
> Subject: RE: Editors Day
>
>
>> Hi Sander,
>>
>> We submitted a list of media in our region about a month ago - and it
>> was down to Munich to decide where to send invites
>>
>> They have the budget etc
>>
>> We will have very limited places on the day - so there will definitely
>> be a tour straight behind any main event to make sure we see as many
>> people as possible :~)
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Andrzej Bania
>> PR and Marketing Manager
>> Northern Europe & South Africa
>> ATI Technologies
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sander Sassen - Hardware Analysis
>> Sent: 08 September 2005 09:14
>> To: Andrzej Bania
>> Subject: Editors Day
>>
>> Will I be there is the question?
>>
>> Sander Sassen
>> http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
>>
Click to expand...
 
I would never have believed that an "internet journalist" could have such a huge ego before reading the above.
 
That's quite an ego Sander's packing. Too bad his credibility is approaching zero.
 
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/article/1813.1/

Please use this thread to discussion the above article. My sincerest apologies to all those who involved in the debate over in the thread from the 3D Hardware & Technology section - I had split the thread, sending the split posts to here, but instead of moving them, the forum software deleted them (and yes, I double-checked everything before hitting that submit button)!
 
I'll put a copy here then too, please don't go playing with the new board software until you RTFM. ;)

ssassen said:
First off I haven't posted here to validate the scores, as I can't, but I'll describe how this came into effect and what happened afterwards. I'll just post it here once, so read it all before you blurt out further questions, as the number of 15-year old testosterone driven ******s has to be at a minimum here hence I have no problem with disclosing more detailed info without someone constantly reading between the lines and weighing every if and when.

In 2004 I was invited by ATI to a private ATI AIB briefing and asked to do a speech about how we journalists would like to work with the AIBs and ATI. The speech I gave was in my usual no holds barred fashion, which was what Chris Hook wanted, and obviously meant I did not sugarcoat anything, but just gave them my views on how we'd like to work with ATI and the AIBs.

After the speech I was directly approached by a number of AIBs that very happy that I'd been so frank and open and I befriended a few of them. After that event I kept in touch with these people and we often talked about all sorts of issues. One of the things that often came up is that they're (sometimes) not happy, frustrated is a better word perhaps, with how ATI handles PR and can understand my frustration when ATI decides to no include me in the sample pool for whatever reason. They also said that getting me a sample early would get them in trouble with ATI, as they have pretty strict guidelines about who talks to the press and who doesn't.

As a fyi, the reason they liked working with me in the first place is that I don't bullshit, I tell things how I see them, whether that's in the best interest of the company I'm talking about or not. Many (and I say this with caution) other journos usually don't have such a direct approach, as they fear a decline in advertising, get their articles edited by an editor that dumbs things down, or simply don't dare to speak their mind. You can call me an arrogant prick for writing this, and maybe I am, that's just how I do things. I'm obviously not 100% right all the time, but I usually do get the discussion started, which is what I'm after, and if I did have it all wrong I’ll be the first to admit it.

So this time around, the upcoming R520 launch, I contacted ATI about three weeks ago and asked whether I was getting a sample prior to the launch and/or was invited to the launch party on Ibiza. ATI PR, came back with 'We’re sorry you did not make the cut', so obviously I asked why, and who did. They made it very clear that press who have a willingness to work with them across every roadmap will get priority. Or rather because I have been criticizing ATI in a few articles and refused to write about other ATI products that I frankly didn’t find interesting enough at that point, they'd rather not work with me. The press that did get invited apparently has written no such articles and basically was very open and willing to publish anything ATI offered.

I then got in touch with one of the AIBs and told them what happened, they were frankly shocked to hear of another ATI PR ‘fiasco’ as they called it and offered to help me. As I outlined above they could not send me a sample, but were willing to run a set of benchmarks on a pre-production R520 clocked at XT and Pro speeds. They did not want to tell me what board revision or what driver was used, but they did say that the scores I’ve been given are close to what the final product will be capable off. So how did I get these scores? Simple really, as is outlined in the article (the majority of people are lazy these days, they don’t care to read anymore). I gave them the exact specs of the system we’ve previously used to test the GeForce 7800GT, GTX and X850 XT (again outlined in the article), hence the scores for these cards are from a previous article, they did NOT run them. All they did is set the game settings as per my instructions (4x AA, 8x AF for example) copy the timedemos I sent them to the game folder and ran the timedemo scripts for these games, no more, no less.

That, in a nutshell is the story behind all this. And as mentioned in the introduction of the article the scores are provided AS-IS, I have no way to verify them. And before you start talking about integrity and credibility and all that, keep in mind that I served these scores with a disclaimer and am just providing a piece of the puzzle. These scores could be 100% accurate or completely off, but sources close to ATI, other than the AIB that ran the benches told me they’re close. But the AIB also mentioned that final clocks could still change, hence the scores could go either way. And obviously ATI is not going to say ‘Good job Sander, thanks for getting the word out’, they will always say they’re false, regardless whether they are or aren’t.

Did I have an axe to grind with ATI? Well to certain extent yes, would I then knowingly publish false information? I sure wouldn’t, this is not a smear campaign. But when ATI wrote back and I quote ‘Once again, you can write what you like’ I just wanted to point out to them that there’s other ways for me to get samples, or scores and would then simple go ahead and post them ahead of any launch date. So am I a whining kid that didn’t get his ice-cream? Perhaps, the bigger issue is that they apparently cut off press that is not afraid to give them a hard time over products that have issues. If that makes me a whining kid, I’d rather be that than not inform my readers of these issues, even if that gets me shitlisted with ATI. To be honest I know many journalists are in the same boat as I am, I have gotten plenty of emails in my inbox, also from prominent websites, not just the smaller ones, these past few days that all have a similar story.

If there’s anymore questions after this huge post I’d be happy to answer them, and I guess someone still has to eat his hat, I’d love to see pictures of that as well.
Click to expand...
 
After some condescending insults from SS we discovered:

digitalwanderer at Elite Bastards said:
And Zardon at DriverHeaven lets loose with some SS info:

> From: Sander Sassen - Hardware Analysis
> [mailto:ssassen@hardwareanalysis.com]
> Sent: 08 September 2005 09:39
> To: Andrzej Bania
> Subject: Re: Editors Day

>
> So you're telling me I'm not invited is that it? I feel an ATI column
> coming
> up, lets see if we can drop the stock price shall we?
>
> Sander Sassen
> http://www.hardwareanalysis.com <http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/>
Click to expand...
:rofl:

So 10 days or so after he threatens ATi he publishes a piece critical of them from some mysterious un-named sources.... :rofl:
Click to expand...
Now Sander was going to explain to us just how this e-mail was taken out of context. :)
 
What the heck is going on? Publishing private emails and shooting low-level shit at each other? I can understand if an individual is motivated to embrace such tactics, but a company? This public airing of dirty laundry is really getting silly.
 
here's some more (sorry for the lack of formatting)...

Kombatant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XSBagage
Tweakers.net is perpetuating hardware analysis their article too.
I'm beginning to think this is going to damage ATi more than I thought.

So posting articles using benchmarks you never performed yourself is the new hip thing to do?


stevem
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I hesitate to add to this thread, esp given JR's summation, but find it difficult to reconcile the following two quotes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssassen
...have you worked as a member of the press for years? Networked your way into companies? Got them to disclose sensitive information to you?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssassen
...NVIDIA has yet to stoop down to that level...

Exactly how long have you been at this caper...? Given DW's link, you can guess at some of the counter-accusations... Good luck.


Old 17-Sep-2005, 21:46 #503
oeLangOetan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XSBagage
Tweakers.net is perpetuating hardware analysis their article too.
I'm beginning to think this is going to damage ATi more than I thought.

euh, what's so special about reporting a review made by another site? Elite Bastards do it, and many more..


Old 17-Sep-2005, 21:51 #504
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I really don't understand the big deal about the HA article/benchmarks. They will very soon have checks/balances in the form of a control with the R5xx series comes out of NDA and websites start posting verifiable benchmarks.

If HA's results are "far and away" from those benchmarks, the site loses all credibility and THEN the slander wars and defamation can commence. Until then it's all "he said/she said" nonsense.

If the benchmarks are totally inaccurate, then HA loses it's readership and forever finds itself without any hits or credibility. If they are even the slightest bit close... well, then Sander Sassen has simply done what he said he did- get some "early, non-NDA" results from a board manufacturer.


Old 17-Sep-2005, 22:02 #505
Ryano
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Some tips for the leet hardware dudes here:

Reading is fundamental and can answer most questions.

A press release is a very different animal than sending some info to hardware sites. Yes, a totally different level as it's comparing something that could be sent to shareholders vs. something that a few thousand college students will read.

I think that has a lot to do with his joke about share prices.

Them releasing transcripts of emails is really fucking low. Attack the content not the poster.

Quote:
So I guess I do have a question for Sander now. Sander, given that you have reported that you did not contact your AIB friend to go around ATI until after you had been turned down by ATI. . . how is it that you knew (or at least represented in the email to ATI on Sep. 8 when you were informed that you weren't on the list on that same day) that your upcoming article would "drop the stock price shall we?"


Posting after being turned down is sorta like still being a reporter even though you didn't get mailed sound bites, right?

Quote:
I really don't understand the big deal about the HA article/benchmarks. They will very soon have checks/balances in the form of a control with the R5xx series comes out of NDA and websites start posting verifiable benchmarks.


Durr checks and balances! It will be awesome when 50 sites all link to each other with stuff that says the exact same thing. Hardware is so EXCITING.



Old 17-Sep-2005, 22:07 #506
Druga Runda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XSBagage
Tweakers.net is perpetuating hardware analysis their article too.
I'm beginning to think this is going to damage ATi more than I thought.


how can this damage ATI? The readership will see the benchies in a few weeks or so, if anyhing this will make ATI to move the lauch forward by a few days, to "prove their point" if they have it that is... anything else, this will only be a good marketing move making R520 launch more visible as people like real life soap operas... if the final results are good this will all be just fine



Old 17-Sep-2005, 22:11 #507
XSBagage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oeLangOetan
euh, what's so special about reporting a review made by another site? Elite Bastards do it, and many more..

Well if you can read Dutch you should know they don't just report the news, they make a little summary in which they highlight what they want. They don't utter a word on how the benchmarks were gotten, in fact they make it seem hardware analysis got their hands on the cards themselves instead of just the benchmarks and they also lash out at ATi for beeing to late 6 months. (with cards that "play along") They do try to contrast it by saying ATi can get more performance with drivers.
In my opinion it goes further than reporting news as "Here is what site x claims, check it out" and in the way they do it they should make sure to make a balanced summary, not a slanted one.


Old 17-Sep-2005, 22:13 #508
ssassen
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I'm sure the final benchmarks will be higher, they will have to be, else ATI looks even worse. But I'll be sure to rerun them on an actual production board, if ATI hasn't told all AIBs to not get within 10-miles of me in which case I guess I got to buy one and give ATI my money. You have to appreciate the irony in that though, part of the revenue made with this article will be spent to buy a X1800XT, I guess ATI wins afterall

Regards,

Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
ssassen is online now Reply With Quote
ssassen



Unread 17-Sep-2005, 22:18 #509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssassen
I'm sure the final benchmarks will be higher, they will have to be, else ATI looks even worse. But I'll be sure to rerun them on an actual production board, if ATI hasn't told all AIBs to not get within 10-miles of me in which case I guess I got to buy one and give ATI my money. You have to appreciate the irony in that though, part of the revenue made with this article will be spent to buy a X1800XT, I guess ATI wins afterall

Regards,

Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com



The world does not need any more stunt journalism.



Unread 17-Sep-2005, 22:20 #510
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Quote:
The world does not need any more stunt journalism.


Agreed. What we need are more press packages and hyperlink banner revenue increasing circle jerks.
 
ssassen said:
Digitalwanderer, you missed quite a few posts in between where I outline exactly what that was about, so I suggest you reread those, I don't have copies as I only get sent copies of what others post.
Click to expand...
I'd re-read them if I could but I can't, I'm just curious as to your side of the e-mail story. I'm gonna hear about Andrzej side early next week, but I figure you're here now so you can tell your side. :)
 
Neeyik said:
Thanks for your help digi and yes I did RTFM! I hate me...
Click to expand...

Oooh, Nick! :oops:

I forgive you, and I'm pretty sure more of my "deathless prose" (and postcount!) just went to the great bitbucket in the sky than anyone elses (peanut gallery hold your pithy replies please! :LOL: ).

Oooouuuch. I'm reminded of the last unintentional cat scratch I got.

Edit: Btw, this is clear evidence of the blatant anti-ATI attitude by B3d staff, "losing" the most effective debunking thread on the 'net about these so-called benchmarks. :p
 
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Don't worry, you'll get the hang of vB over time, my first split over at R3D was disastrerous too (even though the thread was of much less significance lol).

So where were we? ;)
 
Wireframe,

We're in a situation where a coorporation such as ATI decides to attack the person as they can't attack the problem apparantly. Unfortunately that quote is way out of context as I outlined in the deleted thread. I feel no obligation to join ATI in their obvious smear campaign and get the dirty laundry out, but that may change. If that comment, which was meant as a joke, those who know Andrzej Bania will realize that, is used to provide some sort of 'incentive' why I posted these scores than they're in worse shape than I expected, that's a pretty sad response to be honest.

To Nick: can you at least make sure that all the posts that link to the deleted thread end up here? Else this is all a little too convenient don't you agree?

Regards,

Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
 
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