Questions about Sega Saturn

I think you hit the nail on the head for the low-resolution of the textures being a primary culprit. In the case of Crypt Killer above, the Saturn textures are quarter-resolution compared to the Playstation - take a close look at the "Now Loading" door texture at 3:28. No matter if the screen resolution is the same, a texture map that is a quarter or half the resolution of a competitor will "rez-out" more quickly at the same distance from the camera. For instance, if the Saturn eye texture on a face is half the resolution of the one on the Playstation, the Playstation texture will maintain cohesiveness longer as you zoom out from the camera than the Saturn texture, which will exceed the screen's pixel fidelity at a much closer distance. Without any sort of texture filtering/blending or sub-pixel precision, the pixel fighting will be all over the place and lead to image corruption. The fact that Saturn textures seem to err to a lower color depth only exacerbates the situation, where the Playstation can employ some subtle blending of details through the effective use of color shading.

I think this explains some of what is going on with the Resident Evil textures to a certain degree. Can anyone extract the textures from the Playstation and Saturn versions to compare texture maps?
 
Curious btw. Not sure if it was addressed and this is a long thread.
PS1 had a 33.8688 MHz CPU.
The Sega Saturn had 2 processors 28.6 MHz.
Theoretically, if games could use both processors shouldnt have there been cases where the Saturn was performing faster?
But there seems to be a weird relation between the two processors. For example for VF each processor was used for each character. It didnt seem like the two were operating in a manner where complex workloads would be allocated on each efficiently. We know a lot of developers didnt bother to allocate between VDP1 and VDP2. But I am curious about how they handled the 2 CPUs
 
Curious btw. Not sure if it was addressed and this is a long thread.
PS1 had a 33.8688 MHz CPU.
The Sega Saturn had 2 processors 28.6 MHz.
Theoretically, if games could use both processors shouldnt have there been cases where the Saturn was performing faster?
But there seems to be a weird relation between the two processors. For example for VF each processor was used for each character. It didnt seem like the two were operating in a manner where complex workloads would be allocated on each efficiently. We know a lot of developers didnt bother to allocate between VDP1 and VDP2. But I am curious about how they handled the 2 CPUs
If I recall, the CPUs had to share the same memory bus, so they were considerably bottlenecked. Yu Suzuki was quoted in Next Generation issue 1 that at best they might be able to get 1.5x the performance of a single CPU, and that's only in certain situations. He remarked that a single fast CPU would always be favored over multiple. I'm guessing at the time, with the development tools available, most devs didn't have time to coax out the additional benefits from the dual CPU setup.
 
Ok I am just amazed by what the community has been creating on the Sega Saturn after all these years.
They even create mods and improvements on old games.
There is barely anything with such dedication in the homebrew scene with Playstation 1 besides a few tiny creations.
There is more passion on the Saturn
 
Ok I am just amazed by what the community has been creating on the Sega Saturn after all these years.
They even create mods and improvements on old games.
There is barely anything with such dedication in the homebrew scene with Playstation 1 besides a few tiny creations.
There is more passion on the Saturn

From as far as I know, Super Mario 65, Mario Kart 64, and Zelda Ocarina, keep getting new mods too. A dedicated modder has even optmized the hell out of SM64 source code to the point it runs at more than double the original performance.
 
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Question on the 4MB RAM cartridge and games like X-Men vs. Street Fighter. After the initial load, there is virtually no loading during gameplay/different rounds, which was a major Achilles heel of memory-strapped consoles like the Playstation. I remember being hugely disappointed by the 10-second load times in Street Fighter Alpha (not only between fights, but it had to load in the win quotes separately!). I also know that some 1MB RAM cart Saturn games (like Marvel Super Heroes) actually had increased loading times between battles, in order que up the additional animation.

So what exactly did X-Men vs. Street Fighter do between battles to be able to eliminate them almost completely? Understandably, more could be cached in the memory for longer periods of time, but in the end we're still talking about (only) 6+ MB of memory available, which is still smaller than all of the game's assets. Given the luxury of the extra breathing space, did the game seamlessly stream in upcoming data while you played? As in, as Wolverine is battling Cyclops in a heated match, is the disc swapping in the art assets for Magneto and Akuma for the next fight?

Does anyone have any experience with this, and was this something that could have been better explored for other 2D heavy titles, perhaps even with only 2MB of RAM?
 
I have no insight into that, but Game Sack just did a video showing off all of the ram cart games on Saturn.

 
I have no insight into that, but Game Sack just did a video showing off all of the ram cart games on Saturn.


That video is actually what sparked my question. The "disc streaming" theory seems plausible as this technique began to see widespread use for 32-bit systems in the late 90s, at least as it pertained to 3D titles. Many high profile Playstation games were known to stream game/texture data and swap out texture data on the fly (i.e. Soul Reaver, Crash Bandicoot). I just never heard of its use in 2D fighters which were some of the biggest offenders of long load times.

Games like Mortal Kombat (for the fatalities/ Shang Tsung's morphing) and Metal Slug would pause momentarily to stream in animation or level data, but I'm talking about seamless streaming without a break in the action.
 
That video is actually what sparked my question. The "disc streaming" theory seems plausible as this technique began to see widespread use for 32-bit systems in the late 90s, at least as it pertained to 3D titles. Many high profile Playstation games were known to stream game/texture data and swap out texture data on the fly (i.e. Soul Reaver, Crash Bandicoot). I just never heard of its use in 2D fighters which were some of the biggest offenders of long load times.

Games like Mortal Kombat (for the fatalities/ Shang Tsung's morphing) and Metal Slug would pause momentarily to stream in animation or level data, but I'm talking about seamless streaming without a break in the action.
Castlevania Symphany of the Night on Playstation streams level data when you pass through certain hallways. On Saturn, those hallways still exist, but loading doesn't start until you reach the end of the hallway.
 
Castlevania Symphany of the Night on Playstation streams level data when you pass through certain hallways. On Saturn, those hallways still exist, but loading doesn't start until you reach the end of the hallway.

Great example - I forgot about that one. I suppose that probably answers the question.

I also recall now that Digital Foundry's analysis on Resident Evil 2 described how background image data is streamed directly from disc to the Playstation's VRAM as you change camera angles, but that does incur a slight pause between each cut. I would imagine this is the same for Saturn's RE1 port.

That being said, I wonder how much CPU/system overhead there is for streaming data from the disc into memory.
 
Question on the 4MB RAM cartridge and games like X-Men vs. Street Fighter. After the initial load, there is virtually no loading during gameplay/different rounds, which was a major Achilles heel of memory-strapped consoles like the Playstation. I remember being hugely disappointed by the 10-second load times in Street Fighter Alpha (not only between fights, but it had to load in the win quotes separately!). I also know that some 1MB RAM cart Saturn games (like Marvel Super Heroes) actually had increased loading times between battles, in order que up the additional animation.

So what exactly did X-Men vs. Street Fighter do between battles to be able to eliminate them almost completely? Understandably, more could be cached in the memory for longer periods of time, but in the end we're still talking about (only) 6+ MB of memory available, which is still smaller than all of the game's assets. Given the luxury of the extra breathing space, did the game seamlessly stream in upcoming data while you played? As in, as Wolverine is battling Cyclops in a heated match, is the disc swapping in the art assets for Magneto and Akuma for the next fight?

Does anyone have any experience with this, and was this something that could have been better explored for other 2D heavy titles, perhaps even with only 2MB of RAM?

The Saturn was fully capable of streaming data from the disk during gameplay. It did this in games like Panzer Zwei, Panzer Dragoon Saga, and the Shenmue pre-beta video for Saturn. I'm sure there were others. On Mk 1 Saturns you actually had an access light so you could see when the drive was being accessed - particularly interesting for games where the sound was chip generated (like the two Panzer games above) and bosses etc were loading in as you flew along.

From looking at the developer docs I downloaded a bit back, it appears that the Saturn CD unit could be told to go off and preload files into its 512KB dedicated memory. The CDROM drive, its SH1 and its firmware handled this on their own when instructed by the game. Then, when requested you could DMA from this 512KB CDROM dram into either main memory or directly into the video ram. You could do this irrespective of the RAM cart.

But ... the ram cart used the same bus that the CDROM used. And this can't have been a slow bus, as the MPEG Video CD expansion unit was on this bus too, and had to transfer uncompressed video frames and audio over it. So I reckon you could tell the CDROM drive to load a file into it's CDROM RAM, then the Saturn to copy that data to an address range that was on the RAM cart. From there you could copy it to main ram or vram whenever you wanted.

I think it's almost certainly the case that the Saturn could DMA required pages of animation from the RAM cart to vram on demand, and in time for the next frame if the transfer was sufficiently small and properly timed. I think this is how the 1MB RAM cart allowed for enhanced animation.

I can see no reason you couldn't interleave transfering data to main ram / vram from the RAM cart for animation, with loading the next level / fighter's data into unused memory on the 4MB RAM cart. I think the speed and capacity would have been there, and that this is the behaviour you're seeing in games like Xmen vs SF.

Saturn overview.PNG

Looking at a Saturn memory map I found online, I think the max size directly addressable for a cartridge was probably 32MB, but that's just me naively converting hex addresses to decimal and dividing by 1024 twice. Large sizes like this would have been ideal for arcade version of the Saturn - The Titan - that used carts.
 
Maybe someone in this thread there's already the answers to this question, but exactly how good is the SH-2 processor? Specially when compared with the R3000? I know that it's a newer architecture so there must be obvious advantages, but what are those advantages exactly?
 
Soooo many RAM pools!
Yes. I remember when I said what Saturn was mazing machine you disagreed :)
But still I think what that was amazing machine and can render amazing graphics for that time. Homebrew Unreal demo linked above proves that. Interesting what developers could've made for Saturn if Saturn would've been as popular as Playstation. :)
 
Curious. How did the scalers work on the Sega Saturn?
I was watching some VF2 and Last Bronx videos and I was wondering for the surrounding walls and building, if Sega could use planes, or use the scalers to mimick perspective changes they would have given a pseudo-3d look. The 2D sprites used for backgrounds were sticking out too much. The game would have given the illussion that it approached even more the arcade version.
They only used the scalers for floors and ceilings which turned only around the y axis in Megamix and Last Bronx.
I think it would have worked similarly and better than Tekken 3's use of a box where the environments were projected as textures for a pseudo 3d look.
 
A port of MGS1's first area on Sega Saturn

A neat concept, but hard to gauge what later, more complex/expansive areas would look like in terms of performance.

I believe it was discussed earlier, but can anyone confirm that the Saturn's textures are generally at a lower color depth than the Playstation? It seems to me that this is a significant area of difference that rarely gets brought up in comparisons. I can see it here, and I feel like that is a big part of why the Saturn Resident Evil characters look so rough. It seems to me that Playstation's texture color depth is 16 bpp, while Saturn has to operate within an 8bpp palette. The consequence is that Saturn textures lack the more subtle and smoother gradients normally seen in Playstation, resulting in very harsh color contrasting.

Is this a limitation of Saturn's smaller texture VRAM, or something else?
 
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