PSP2 should be similar to PS3 is power
- Thread starter edepot
- Start date
Now I understand I may have posted some things that ruffled some feathers in some people (I'll list some posted this year)...
Taking sides of regular consumers:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1362076
Taking sides of technological progress:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=55240
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=52419
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=52180
Taking sides of the regular developers:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=55310
Taking sides of truth vs profit:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1347596&postcount=43
But seriously, I wish people would stop stooping to such low behavior. Unfortunately, I can't visit this forum daily to respond (or defend myself), and as I stated in the above post, if people want to judge my posts, do read them or the links I provide and do research on your own, rather than trust any generic responses. If you can't back up your statements, anybody who posts anything will take equal weight. I have yet to see people back up their statements with benchmarks or visual confirmation. I have provided links to images, and have provided benchmarks in previous posts. In fact for this post, I will provide a lot of links to back up my statements.
For certain cases, the PSP is more powerful than the PS2...
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/31247-13-faster-linear-linear-filtering
If you divide up the performance of the PS2 by screen size (2.2) then it nears the ballpark of the PSP. 80% is a very close figure in visual quality. And to counter those who say budget is the reason for visual quality, I'll only list high budget games...
Metal Gear PSP:
http://pspmedia.ign.com/psp/image/a...solid-peace-walker-20090716113127370_640w.jpg
http://theportablegamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/mgspeacewalk2.jpg
Metal Gear PS2:
http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/mgs3snake_082703_02_640w.jpg
GOW PSP:
http://exophase.com/images/misc/GOW COO tartarus_cs_09.jpg
http://www.pspworld.com/sony-psp/images/GOW2.jpg
GOW PS2:
http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/article/566/566267/god-of-war-20041115020230020.jpg
http://www.jackbook.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/god-of-war-2.jpg
Tekken PSP:
http://pspmedia.ign.com/psp/image/a...-dark-resurrection-20060217100347568_640w.jpg
Tekken PS2:
http://www.xgaming.com/service/Newsletter/2005/tekken-5-20050228033748817.jpg
Wipeout PSP:
http://www.mypsp.com.au/img/game/large/Wipeout-Pulse-5.jpg
Wipeout PS2:
http://i.testfreaks.com/images/products/600x400/207/wipeout-fusion.723919.jpg
Lastly, moving PSP2 to the number 2 slot here is not a bad thing at all:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=55458
Finally to the articles on the website:
PS3 secrets: http://www.edepot.com/playstation3.html
iPhone secrets: http://www.edepot.com/iphone.html
PSP secrets: http://www.edepot.com/reviews_sony_psp.html
Feel free to state what BS you see above. I would be happy to correct them (IF you can back up your statements of course, because I am after the truth).
If you are talking about PS4 speculation:
http://www.edepot.com/playstation4.html
I have not seen two speculations by others on this forum that match, so including another is no big deal unless you have some other ulterior motives for being against it.
Sorry if I am unable to follow-up frequently, as previously mentioned, I do not visit often. But people should be careful because a lot of the posters here place motives and profit before truth.
As for TBDR, I challenge someone to post a iPhone 3GS game that exceeds the best graphics a PSP game offers. We all know no iPhone 2G/3G can challenge a PSP, so I am waiting for some pictures that prove iPhone 3GS can do better, and as of this date I have not seen one. I have provided pics (and benchmarks) comparing the two (assassin's creed for example), why has no-one been able to provide a counter with 3GS? Until that day comes (pics or benchmarks that prove otherwise), any vendor or fanboy can twist whatever words to fit their agenda.
Now I will comment on somethings mentioned in this thread:
PSP Gran Turismo: yes, that game has terrible graphics. I think the concentration was to fit 800 cars into a UMD using high compression. If you want a car game with good texture to compare with try MotorStorm.
PSP Phone: if you read iPhone/PSP Secrets my opinion still stands.
Lastly, I think PSP2 SHOULD try to match or exceed PS3 (so 80% or higher, not 80% or lower is what they should aim for). A portable you can plug into your HDTV to play games (and watch movies) is the future. 1080p (720p if they fail because of terrible GPU) output to HDTV is not hard. Look at nVidia's GeForce Go (they even have mobile versions of 7800 used in RSX). If they can do it for mobile devices, why can't Sony?
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edepot:
Have you actually programmed the PSP and PS2? Do you understand the huge architecture differences between the two?
You can do normal mapping on the PS2, the hardware will be happy with lots of overdraw, you can do lots of crazy things because of the insane b/w in the system. The PSP works in a very different way so, for starters, you are comparing apples and oranges.
Texturing from VRAM gives you 500Mb/s of available b/w. That's your best case scenario. So when you start adding detail you have to make your textures as small as possible, decrease the depth in your back and front buffers, and so on and so forth. That's why many games end up using RGB565/RGB4444 color buffers.
If you want we can have a tech oriented thread about this and speculate about a future PSP2 but posting screenshots is not very useful.
Have you actually programmed the PSP and PS2? Do you understand the huge architecture differences between the two?
You can do normal mapping on the PS2, the hardware will be happy with lots of overdraw, you can do lots of crazy things because of the insane b/w in the system. The PSP works in a very different way so, for starters, you are comparing apples and oranges.
Texturing from VRAM gives you 500Mb/s of available b/w. That's your best case scenario. So when you start adding detail you have to make your textures as small as possible, decrease the depth in your back and front buffers, and so on and so forth. That's why many games end up using RGB565/RGB4444 color buffers.
If you want we can have a tech oriented thread about this and speculate about a future PSP2 but posting screenshots is not very useful.
Prophecy2k
Veteran
SB I love you dude!!!!!
Honestly, I can understand people wanting a PSPhone for "always connected" functionality, but imho wifi + bluetooth is just enough (how many people will use their portable console online anyways)...
I wouldn't mind two separate SKUs of the PSP2:
A) One that is your traditional fair PSP portable console, however expanding the non-game functionality with more awesome apps like the comic reader and possibly even an app store.
B) The second could be a PSPhone that focuses more on the short-and-sweet iphone-like content like the "minis" but they should even lower the game prices further. They should also position this device to be the primary handheld of choice for the next big thing in portable entertainment... (wait for it)... portable online-MMOs!!!!!!! Think a handheld version of WOW for the PSPhone... that would rock so hard and suck a whole lot of wind out the DS2s sails ;-) (yep Sony... you can have that one for free
)h0munkulus
Newcomer
sony will never make the next PSP a PS"Phone". main reason:
- japanese cellphone market.
make no mistake! sony is still a japanese company and the japanese cellphone market functions vastly different from the US and europe! a psp+cellphone combo would not be acceptable for japanese people. even though sony bought ericsson to get in the international cellphone market you will find no sony-ericsson cellphones in japan, that's how different the japanese market is!
Actually, I agree, and it's one of the main reason why practically haven't bought any games for the PSP yet, but have instead purchased many PSone classics for it. I don't really like 3d games on the PSP. I'd much prefer to have nice looking 2d games on it - Loco Roco is great, Exit and many of those games, I like. I also think role-playing games would be great on the PSP - nothing fast or too much action.
I'd much rather have some cleaner graphics and better battery life than a lot more raw performance. It's not as if there's a lot of [graphical] competition in the handheld market yet and I don't expect Nintendo to concentrate on that either.
Spaceman-Spiff
Regular
Being able to render 720p videos is different than being able to render 720p games.
Would be nice if PSP2 can output 720p or 1080p videos to the TV, but to play games at that resolution... I don't think the technology is there yet. Maybe in 2-3 more years.
rendezvous
Regular
OffTopic:
Just to make it clear, Sony never bought Ericsson.
Sony Ericsson is a joint venture where Sony and Ericsson owns 50% each.
Just to make it clear, Sony never bought Ericsson.
Sony Ericsson is a joint venture where Sony and Ericsson owns 50% each.
Er am I the only one who would be happy to see a CPU about 20% as fast as what's in the 360 with ~ 33% the GPU performance on a unified shader architecture @ about half the resolution? The comparison to PS3 is kinda irrelevant, I'd think, if we're talking pie-in-the-sky stuff - Tech has moved on from where PS3 was, and I'd think that applies even to the ultra-mobile space.
DuckThor Evil
Legend
He's making the point that with the small screen size with relatively high resolution the visual quality will be competitive, of course that is different than having similar power, but still it's not a bad point. I still think PSP falls short quite a bit and that PSP2 will fall more compared to PS3, if the PSP2 is released next year.
For a given cost, the PowerVR TBDR architecture of both the MBX and SGX GPUs in the iPhones far outperforms the PSP's. This is why Sony is going to Imgtec for PSP2, and Sony could've had better performance, pricing, and/or battery life for the first PSP had they commissioned an MBX variant for 2004.
PowerVR TBDR doesn't sacrifice so much die area for eDRAM nor so much external bandwidth for frame buffer reaccesses. It doesn't suffer from high demands of memory footprint and/or bandwidth for AA, from compound dithering in color, from wasted fillrate for overdraw, nor from many of the other numerous inefficiencies in memory access patterns and in processor utilization due to coupled geometry and rasterization handling that other approaches can suffer.
iPhone apps haven't really tried to exploit the capabilities of the 3GS's SGX535 yet (and much of its DirectX 9+ level and its custom PowerVR functionality will probably never be exposed to developers through the basic OpenGL ES 2.0 API), but Bounce Evolution, running on an SGX with half the TMUs and clocked at only two-thirds the speed, demonstrates advanced graphics by any handheld standards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6JfxdWg0HI
Regarding the iPhone 3GS's video capabilities, no other device even near its class can compete once Apple starts really taking advantage of its 1080-capable VXD.
PowerVR TBDR doesn't sacrifice so much die area for eDRAM nor so much external bandwidth for frame buffer reaccesses. It doesn't suffer from high demands of memory footprint and/or bandwidth for AA, from compound dithering in color, from wasted fillrate for overdraw, nor from many of the other numerous inefficiencies in memory access patterns and in processor utilization due to coupled geometry and rasterization handling that other approaches can suffer.
iPhone apps haven't really tried to exploit the capabilities of the 3GS's SGX535 yet (and much of its DirectX 9+ level and its custom PowerVR functionality will probably never be exposed to developers through the basic OpenGL ES 2.0 API), but Bounce Evolution, running on an SGX with half the TMUs and clocked at only two-thirds the speed, demonstrates advanced graphics by any handheld standards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6JfxdWg0HI
Regarding the iPhone 3GS's video capabilities, no other device even near its class can compete once Apple starts really taking advantage of its 1080-capable VXD.
grandmaster
Veteran
The problem with making PSP2 a mobile telephone is that you end up with a device that is simply too big and cumbersome. I honestly think it's not going to happen.
You could of course remove the joypad layout, but that would be a catastrophically bad error for a device with pure gaming credentials.
You could of course remove the joypad layout, but that would be a catastrophically bad error for a device with pure gaming credentials.
specwarGP2
Regular
Not a phone, but an always connected 3G/4G device. It could be an internet/IM/skype/gaming device.
I don't think so. Looking at devices like the Iphone and G1, which have been out a few years. Its hard to imagine that in 2 years that Sony can't develop a handheld that fits those dimensions. How is it going to be hard to develop a PSP2 with the height and width of a old G1 phone with some analog nubs and a qwerty keyboard (the size found on your typical blackberry) that slide out?
Alternatively have the phone work over a headset, or in 'hands free' mode. A very cool design would have the headset slide out of the handheld so it's always available.
I think the handheld will need internet access, and a roaming mobile option, even without voice comms, seems essential to me. Certainly as an option.
Only problem is that handheld manufacturers will have to workout a relationship with the carriers as the only non cell phones products with data plans that I see regularly in the states are netbooks. And thats mostly on store shelves and not people's homes. ATT and Verizon offers several netbooks with data plans (200-250mb for $35-$40 or 5 Gb for $60), which I don't consider cheap or really conducive to promoting the use 3g data plans outside of the cell phone arena.
Unless, game only handhelds come with the option of much cheaper data plans or the ability to piggyback on top of a consumer's existing cell phone plan, smart phones like the iphones, where the manufacturers are motivated to enter the game space, will have an inherent advantage. The concept of carrying two devices, each with its own data plan, is hardly to going to more attractive than one device with one data plan, if features offered are equal.
I would be humbled at discussing a tech oriented thread on this, but I don't think it would be helpful unless benchmarks are involved. Because I found that most postings I have made so far here, the people concentrate on the messenger rather than the message, or some who can get past that think if they can find one small part to refute, the whole message or messenger, is invalid. That is ludicrous. If someone comes to tell you your house is burning and points at the fire to get your attention, does that person matter more than the fire? Most opinions are subjective anyways without backing. Some (especially those that are paid) keep going back to their posts to re-edit their original statements just so it puts out certain products in a good light trying to hide any imperfections. It gets tedious trying to discuss in this light because it is like a game of edits and re-edits.
Look at the benchmark post of the iPhone having worse graphics than PSP. The official theoretical figures and the benchmark figures for the iphone are about 5 times in difference! And only for most BASIC type of flat triangles. After you start adding in textures, it goes downhill from there (and I am starting to think arstechnica was right in the first assumption that maybe the SGX 535 is not used because 5 times is a LOT). But then there was a notebook with the same SGX 535 chip and there were terrible reviews on the performance so I am thinking perhaps there is something wrong with it internally. Similarly on the PSP you start with lots of performance for basic triangles (trumping the SGX), and it also goes downhill after adding in textures. But the thing is, when they finally get to the final product (textured triangles with some fancy features), there are more horsepower left to code in other fancy stuff or more triangles on the PSP. That is the important thing (what is leftover, and what you can do in code that hardware limits you because... it is hardware and how it textures or how it does 3D is FIXED for the lifetime of the product). What I mean by fixed functions is what is fixed in hardware provided for graphics, rather than what you can code yourself because of a fast cpu (I got twisted on this one too).
So unless you can code on the PS2 (you can use homebrew), and provide a simple benchmark doing certain number of textured triangles, and port the same to the PSP, talking theoretical is basically subjective. Or you can show similar games pushing their max triangle capability and compare them.
However, graphical capability can be observed objectively and not subjectively in certain situations. For example, if you take a number of screens on the atari 2600 and compare them to a number of screens in PS3 it is a no brainer which has better graphics. If you start looking at a number of similar games on different consoles, in a similar way, you can usually tell which has better graphics.
But since you are a homebrew coder, I think you are able to provide a benchmark code for both in relative ease, then take into consideration the screen size and we have something very close in performance. However, I think the PSP2 should try to have a goal of having the same performance during TV-Out as the PS3, so at the same screen size.
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