Panajev2001a
Veteran
Natoma said:
I do not think it will be more than $299 ( max price ).
PSP Launching Price : Japan 48,000 Yen, UK : ~250 Pounds
- Thread starter Deadmeat
- Start date
I do not think it will be more than $299 ( max price ).
Hmmm.. Even that price is hard to stomach when I can get a Gameboy Advance or SP for $70 and immediately have a 14 year library at my disposal.
Man..... I hope they get it to $199. Then I'd begin to strongly consider purchasing one. But $299? I'd rather buy 7 GBA games or 15 DVDs.
Man..... I hope they get it to $199. Then I'd begin to strongly consider purchasing one. But $299? I'd rather buy 7 GBA games or 15 DVDs.
nondescript
Regular
jvd said:
So, summarizing: The reason PS2 is selling so well has nothing to do with a better game library and add-ons like Eyetoy. The reason it sells well is hype. For some reason, Xbox couldn't attain the same hype as PS2, so Microsoft decided to stop spending the money that they started off spending [on hype, that is], and that's why it isn't selling as well as Xbox. Because hype is what's needed to sell almost anything.
Is the a correct description of what you think? If not, please tell me what is wrong.
Then I ask again:
Nondescript's last post said:
What does this have to do with PSP? All I was pointing out is that PSX, despite concentrated ill will, is doing fine, "smashing success" to shamelessly quote myself, and I think PSP will prove to be much the same.
As to why I believe PSX is a smashing success, read my last post. But answer my question first, please.
EDIT: Formatting errors
I'll agree that the sound chip is overkill for the device (I wonder what its cost versus decent alternatives are, though--if it amounts to little, why not? I can't see it making a huge price compromise), but basically every other multi-media use and and other reduction/removal affects games, or was trivial to add in anyway and doesn't impact unit price. Integrated wireless may be on the edge right now, but is fast becoming accepted and desired by all sorts of devices, so it's best to have it there. From everything else I've seen, all the "unnecessary abilities" are add-ons and options, not built into the cost--which mainly comes from the power of the components that go directly toward the gaming experience.
Are people willing to PAY that much for gaming to that level in a portable device? That's an entirely different and entirely valid question. (How much would they notice between different power scales: GBA/N64/PSP, and how much are they willing to pay to get one over another?) But most of the things people see as "feature creep" are carried along by the gaming experience it is trying to present and doesn't seem to add extraneous cost.
Are people willing to PAY that much for gaming to that level in a portable device? That's an entirely different and entirely valid question. (How much would they notice between different power scales: GBA/N64/PSP, and how much are they willing to pay to get one over another?) But most of the things people see as "feature creep" are carried along by the gaming experience it is trying to present and doesn't seem to add extraneous cost.
Natoma said:
Come on man - look at those PC specs, you can afford this.
Seriously, I have no fucking clue what they're doing. It seemed as if Sony was sailing towards cementing it's console dominance by fatally wounding Nintendo in the one area it still controls. Now they're just going to have yet another expensive dud on their hands in the fine tradition of Betamax, Hi8, and Memory Stick (ironically enough a successful PSP could have given the Memory Stick format a good second chance at dominance). Never underestimate the ability of Sony to pull defeat from the jaws of victory at the last minute.
I doubt pulling features would reduce the cost of the unit; most multimedia functionality seems to leverage the main chipset. The blame for the pricetag lies in Sony's arrogance. Crap - until this week the line was "similiar in price to GBASP."
EDIT: removed some pointless bitterness.
Panajev2001a
Veteran
Natoma said:Hmmm.. Even that price is hard to stomach when I can get a Gameboy Advance or SP for $70 and immediately have a 14 year library at my disposal.
Man..... I hope they get it to $199. Then I'd begin to strongly consider purchasing one. But $299? I'd rather buy 7 GBA games or 15 DVDs.
I already have a GBA, Game Gear, SNES, Saturn, Amiga 2000 with 4 MB RAM Expansion and a C64 ( my family has both machines in working conditions plus emulators for each ).
I have bought already most of the GREAT 2D glories and some arrived for free in Bonus CDs like Nintendo's Zelda Collection disc.
GBA SP is still $99 and even if it goes to $79 by the time PSP comes out I would find the price justified ( I will not take into account the rumored e-DRAM expansion for the PSP ).
GBA:
16.67 MHz ARM7tdmi with no FP co-processor.
32 KB of Internal Work RAM.
96 KB of VRAM.
HW support for 128 sprites and 4 BGs.
No Sound chip.
ROM sizes varying from 4-to-8 MB in size with Matrix 3DROM upping that to 64-128 MB: even higher, but already after 64 MB I doubt that it would be very cheap for developers to use those ROMs.
Slow link cable.
Front-lit screen with 240x160 of resolution.
PSP:
333 MHz R4000i with FPU and VFPU: 2.6 GFLOPS peak.
8 MB of e-DRAM ( ~2.6 GB/s ) as main RAM.
2 MB of VRAM ( ~5.3 GB/s ).
2 MB of Sound RAM + I/O RAM ( ~2.6 GB/s ).
VME Re-configurable DSP as Sound Processor: Surround Sound audio, MP3, AAC, ATRAC3 ( and possibly ATRAC3+ IIRC ), etc... with no real hit on the 2D/3D processing performance.
GPU with HW Support for HOS Tessellation, T&L ( peak of 33 MVertices/s ), Morphing, Skinning, etc... and fill-rate of 664 MPixels/s.
1.8 GB UMD disc ( optical disc ).
USB 2.0 and WiFi 802.11 support built-in.
Memory Stick support.
Back-lit 4.5'' screen with 480x272 resolution.
Etc...
I would say that the money is worth it...
I had the exact same thing in mind before - and it's kind of a repeating circle (PSP drives MS market up, drives other MS devices sales, drives PSP...) but not if this thing will end up as another niche.akira said:
That's besides the point.Panajev said:
I mean heck, expand memory to 32MB, install PalmOS6 and you can easily sell this baby for 800$(or more).
I am sure 300$ is no big deal for gadget freaks, but I really thought the talk of 21st century Walkman had a bigger market in mind.
Panajev2001a
Veteran
Fafalada said:
Let them shrink the puppy to 65 nm ( after the initial launch shipment which will probably sell out in Japan and maybe even in the U.S. if they hype it well at next E3 ) and the cost will fall decisively...
That is the benefit of SoC designs.
I agree that initially the price is worth it... unless Sony changes its mind and decides to loose more money on launch PSP Hardware ( I would rather them do that on PlayStation 3 Hardware ) they will probably go for $249-299 which I still repeat is worth it considering what they offer you and what the competition offers you ( hence my comparison with a $79 GBA SP ).
Re: ...
By all means, provide us with the cost breakdown. We'd all be interested.Deadmeat said:
It might be worth it, but i don't think that's the point here. A PS3 with 32 BE's and 16 VPUs runing in parallel with 16GB Ram and Blue Ray 16x all for $10,000 might be worth it, but that wouldn't be the point here...
I think either Sony are willing to take it slow, without the need to have PS2 kind of sales in the beginning (people queuing up 3 days before release and stuff), so that the PSP can be introduced to the market slowly, allowing people to get used to the idea and wait till price drops (very likely),
or are focusing on the wrong target audience,
or maybe something else altogether which we are not aware of at the moment.
Personally i don't have £299 to spend on a thing like this, as worth the price as it can be. And i'm sure i'm one of many.
I think either Sony are willing to take it slow, without the need to have PS2 kind of sales in the beginning (people queuing up 3 days before release and stuff), so that the PSP can be introduced to the market slowly, allowing people to get used to the idea and wait till price drops (very likely),
or are focusing on the wrong target audience,
or maybe something else altogether which we are not aware of at the moment.
Personally i don't have £299 to spend on a thing like this, as worth the price as it can be. And i'm sure i'm one of many.
Panajev2001a
Veteran
Re: ...
F.U.D. you do not know its price... all we know is that Sony internally NEVER talked about more than a $299 MSRP and that they do not intend to incur losses on PSP at its launch.
What you say is without logical connection...
EE+GS is moving to 65 nm already ( 32 Mbits SoC sampled by Sony at 65 nm ), why should the PSP's SoC lag behind ?
F.U.D. and yet more F.U.D.
Deadmeat said:
F.U.D. you do not know its price... all we know is that Sony internally NEVER talked about more than a $299 MSRP and that they do not intend to incur losses on PSP at its launch.
Not until CELL moves to 45 nm, that is. You will have to be waiting for a very very long time.[/quote]
What you say is without logical connection...
EE+GS is moving to 65 nm already ( 32 Mbits SoC sampled by Sony at 65 nm ), why should the PSP's SoC lag behind ?
F.U.D. and yet more F.U.D.
Panajev2001a
Veteran
london-boy said:
As long as the few around the world that can afford it come close to what they can actually sell at retail then their math ( which I think they spent quite a bit of time on ) should work.
The E3 and the TGS will allow us to judge much better how strong the demand is for the PSP.
Panajev,
Do you have anything specific that states the EE+GS is moving to 65nm already? My general timeframe for process sampling to serious logic ASIC's is, in my mind, about 12-18 months (for customer fabs at least) - when you say "32 Mbits SoC" what are you talking about?
Do you have anything specific that states the EE+GS is moving to 65nm already? My general timeframe for process sampling to serious logic ASIC's is, in my mind, about 12-18 months (for customer fabs at least) - when you say "32 Mbits SoC" what are you talking about?
Panajev2001a said:
That's the problem, Pana... At that price, the demand will be very low. In the end,
-it does not target the PDA market,
-it does not target the gaming handheld market, being too Elite for 99% of us out here who'd rather spend that money on games and DVD
-it does not target the cell phone market
What exactly is Sony's focus here? An elite handheld gaming crowd? There ain't that many people like that out there...
Panajev2001a
Veteran
DaveBaumann said:
Sony a while ago stated IIRC that they started sampling 65 nm devices for their own Nagasaki #2 plant and they made the example of a device with 32 Mbits of e-DRAM: the EE+GS is a guess, but an educated one IMHO.
When you talk about customer fabs you mean UMC, TSMC and IBM's plants like East Fishkill ?
This is what I mean by moving already.
Sony has always been aggressive with die shrinks in their PlayStation line, look at this ( bottom slide in page 2 of the presentation ):
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/info/presen/eve_03/handout.pdf
The EE+GS has already been shipped in quantity to the mass-market ( PSX ) and I am sure that work is under way to shrink the EE+GS to 65 nm as it could save them some money by increasiong their profit margins on PlayStation 2 and the future PSTwo ( you just know they will do a PSTWo as it would be selling very well IMHO ).
Being that it will have some PDA features, it obviously has connections there. CES 2004 promo'd some upcoming media players, and it certainly covers that aspect. It is obviously not to be a massive-scale kids' handheld, but it certainly creates a new tier for gaming on a portable device well above current levels. Connectivity between devices and to the Internet, and other high-tech expansion possibilities leaves it open as a centerpiece for portable media capabilities and high-tech gadgetry.
A high price, of course, keeps it out of the mainstream (at least of a scale like the GBA), but as their price can drop, their sales will surge--it becomes more and more mainstream. And though they don't want to sell at a loss, they also don't want to squeeze it for profit until it gets to a level where it sells the kind of volumes they want. Bear in mind the PS2 went from costing them money to giving them profit, and the consumer price has shrunk a lot as it is. The price for the PSP could eventually go down a substantial degree. As it goes down, the gaming focus takes over more and more, and everything else gets carried along.
A high price, of course, keeps it out of the mainstream (at least of a scale like the GBA), but as their price can drop, their sales will surge--it becomes more and more mainstream. And though they don't want to sell at a loss, they also don't want to squeeze it for profit until it gets to a level where it sells the kind of volumes they want. Bear in mind the PS2 went from costing them money to giving them profit, and the consumer price has shrunk a lot as it is. The price for the PSP could eventually go down a substantial degree. As it goes down, the gaming focus takes over more and more, and everything else gets carried along.
Oh, I’m sure they will, but I think there’s a leap of faith in terms of timings. Whenever I read something about a new process from TSMC or UMC I see them quoting production samples of fairly small devices at one point and then typically I’ll see a new generation of graphics chips (who are generally most aggressive fables semicons with very large logic devices) utilising that process about 12-18 months after the initial devices. Granted, EE+GS probably won’t be pushing the 65nm process and they have a fair amount of prior knowledge with it, but that doesn’t means its going to be a piece of cake to implement (especially as its not an optical shrink from 90nm to 65nm and it would seem that they have only have the EE+GS integrated at 90nm).
Do you know exactly what this e-DRAM device is? Or, do you know if/when they trailed similar things at 90nm?
Honestly, to me that doesn’t look like particularly aggressive even for fables semicons prior to 130nm. 130nm and beyond looks aggressive though.
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