PSP Launching Price : Japan 48,000 Yen, UK : ~250 Pounds

jvd said:
and how big is the market ????
Since we don't know, doesn't that apply to overwhelmingly disparaging comments as well? It's been all of two weeks so far, and we're far too short on figures. Perhaps if we get more, we'll be able to actually claim more things with real basis.

and what is the average person going to buy it for. My mother just got a color phone with get it now from verizon for free when she signed up.

How much is it to make a psp a cell phone ? Can you get every service with it. Do you need to pay an extra fee.
Who knows? We certainly don't know the specifics, and--as with the base unit itself--price is primarily what makes things matter.
Whatever they end up doing with cellphone use and/or GRPS, it will primarily affect those who already own the device, rather than attracting people in. (Of course it WILL affect others from that point as well, which is still always good.)
No one just thinking about a cell phone is going to go "hey I should really get a cellphone--should I get a PSP?" If I were to make my own guess about it, I think their best option would be to make sure their Sony/Ericsson products can link up, which gives a broad range of ACTUAL phone options, makes them more attractive, and doesn't confuse anyone about how the phones or their services would go. (With the additional possibility of a small device to allow GRPS-only communication for Internet linking capabilities, with its own separate subscription charge.)

How about a kid who wants to play mp3s and games . Will this be better than a flash mp3 player that goes for 80$ and a gba that goes for a 100 ? how much more will this cost .
As a parent, I'd hesitate in encouraging my kids to tote along expensive devices they'd use roughly anyway. :p But yes, a PSP would still be more expensive, though better as a flash player (functions the same but with better sound chips, as I've seen), it's own brand of gaming (much smaller, but much "more"), seamless multiplayer, and other features besides.

But no, I don't see grade and middle-schoolers being a major target market--not for a while. This will most CERTAINLY affect its starting numbers, but I don't think is a critical demographic. Gaming itself has been a steadily-aging activity, and high-tech A/V equipment always skews older.

If the system costs 200$ and a memory stick costs 50$ and a game costs 50$ thats 300. Now how about a cell phone attachment . Say another 20 ? So thats 320. How many parents are going to want thier kid to carry this . Hell i would be worried about carrying this with me . I don't even bring my gba sp on the path to the city with me. I take my gba that i got for 35$ used.
They're not. I wouldn't want my kid carrying a $200 device around with them until at least high school anyway. This is still not a necessity, and not what PSP's target market has been. They'll get wrapped in eventually, though, if it gets more popular (many parents succumbing to "have to have" things), but mainly when its costs lower enough.


because they can still make money off gba games and spend less making them.
I've already said that devs will not be lowering their GBA commitment, and that it would likely have little to know bearing on their decision to support the PSP anyway. Why are you repeating the same thing?
Its a bigger market and when nintendo moves thier next system into the market they will most likely make it play gb games . Meaning the games will have an even longer cycle.
This point has MANY other ramifications to consider as well, and in the meanwhile regardless of if their next portable has GBA games as a compatibility, they're STILL not going to slow down much. There are too many millions of GBA's out there, and no one else with dominance in the same demographics or price bracket. Of course the GBA--which supports GB carts fine--replaced the GB eventually (are there still any notable GB carts made?), such will Nintendo's next system eventually do to their GBA. Unless that cart medium would be the SAME for their next handheld (which I consider unlikely and think would be a mistake. Just part of my earlier "ramifications" comment). GBA cames will run their natural course whether PSP is there or not, and almost no matter what form Nintendo's next portable takes.

As for the gcn portable being a wet dream well i think your wrong. Right now sony can easily make a portable ps2 with some tweaks for power consumption and put it on using .09 . I'm sure next year in 2005 nintendo can make a .09 gcn portable. Ati is great at making low powered chips . Not only that but since they will be running the games in a much lower res nintendo might not have to clock the chips as high as the gc is clocked right now .

One that would be able to play existant GCN games flawlessly and encorporate their same programming methods? (With a few change to be made afterward.) I'm not talking about relative power scale. The PSP is not a "portable PS2" as it doesn't play the media or function the same way. Nintendo's COULD potentially make exactly a "portable GCN"--using the same media and gaining immense advantage--but I don't think they have the inclination to do THAT, and even if they do I forsee a rather intense amount of effort that would be involved to bring it about. (Hence it would have to be started now/before now, and likely would take until 2006 minimum.) IF they could do it, though, it would give them a portable system of great power and immense advantages--a built-in library, and a slew of developers who've had years to program that way. (And could adjust easily to handheld quirks.) I have nowhere near the expertise to contemplate what would have to be involved in this, though... ^_^;; (But I don't think it would at all be trivial.) I think they could bring this out even HIGHER than the PSP and still blow them out, I'd think. And it would reinforce GCN sales continuing through its own lifespan as well.

If all we're talking about is a "GCN-scale" portable, they could certainly manage that in 2005. But by all accounts, they'll be at the same "stage one" as the PSP--with a new system with nothing built up, and developers learning to code for them fresh. (As usual.) They would most likely have GBA-support (I would imagine from a cartridge-connecting dongle and emulation), but that would just make consumers feel better and surge hardware sales--it wouldn't have any impact on how developers code for them and the rest of their usual considerations.

Why sony did not make the psp a portable ps2 is beyond me .
They wouldn't be able to play PS2 games regardless (a DVD-using portable would be rather psychotic from a size-perspective), and if not I can certainly see them wanting to get away from PS2's complex programming schemes for a device like that. (And perhaps embracing tech that will work out better for the portable screen than TV's.)

I suppose they COULD have embraced that route by using their SOC, but I imagine this would run too hot anyway, and consumers would still have to repurchase games--even if all they were were moved from DVD to the chosen ROM format. It would gain notable advantages if it were--say--miniDVD, and people could burn games they own that were small enough (or if they worked out a compression scheme, perhaps any game?) to media that could then play fine on the PSP, but then protections go right out the window and piracy runs rampant. (And neither Sony nor Nintendo would dream of encouraging that.)

They could have shippied on .09 and then shrunk when they could. Game makers would have a huge library that would easily be ported to the portable and the ps3 would be backwards compatable .

Porting would be easier (of course who knows how hard it WILL be?), but that doesn't make it fanatically desired by the public, who would still have to repurchase games. If, however, they could play what they already own...? I could see EB stampedes being a leading cause of death in launch the launch month! :p
 
Almasy:

> if they all consist of glorified versions of "Nintendo is THA KKING and
> CAN´t dO nO WROng!!!".

It would be nice if you would refrain from putting words in my mouth.

> Are you going to stop playing handheld games by the time the eventual
> 3D Nintendo handheld comes around?

No. But I'm not going to buy a 3d Game Boy if all it offers is ports of N64 and GC games and downgraded versions of whatever comes out for the real consoles. The great thing about the GBA is that it complements the GC by offering experiences you don't get on the home consoles. 3d games in general are unsuitable for gaming on the go and can be done better on more capable hardware.

> I´m sure I´ve seen a couple of posts from you talking in a positive
> manner about

If the last word is supposed to be "it" then I doubt it. I really have no opinion about the next GB... I'll wait for the announcement.

> Therefore that justifies very old technology, right?

Whatever gets the job done. Of course it can always get better but for the price I think it's great. Battery life is acceptable as well, something that isn't likely to be the case with PSP.

> That doesn´t benefit gamers (which includes you, btw).

Of course it does. I get a great product with great games for a reasonable price. So what if Nintendo makes a profit on the hardware? Quite frankly I'd like to see more companies rely on responsible business models.

> but they seem like they want this handheld to sink if they do go with
> that price.

Sony knows its audience well. And it knows that the handheld business doesn't offer the kind of margins and sales that can justify taking a loss on the hardware.

> However, logic dictates that there has to be at least some good
> software at some point, doesn´t it?

That's a reasonable assumption but an assumption nonetheless. Personally I'd rather play some great software on my GBA now instead of dreaming about what may be.

> If PSP has the potential to deliver great games

GBA has the potential to deliver great games as does the home consoles and set-top boxes. What makes PSP so unique that you'd rather see games released for it than existing hardware? To me it's like Xbox... not needed.
 
I would just like to point out that more and more developers choose to resort to primitive 3D engines even on the GBA, although the machine obviously was never built with 3D in mind. That's how strong inclination of game devs is towards the 3D.

Why sony did not make the psp a portable ps2 is beyond me
Because they thought about it and it's not possible? I mean come on now, how big, power consuming, and expensive would that thing be? You think it's just that easy to shrink something like PS2 or GC enough to fit in your pocket and doesn't look like bloated crap you'd be ashamed to be seen with? Sure, in the world of speculation it all makes sense, it's all doable and possible, just as I'm sure in it would be possible to build a 10Km tall building under perfect cirumstances... that is until you go to the world of real engineering, where the crapload of problems in our unpredictable, imperfect world, arise from all directions. For one, handheld component are expensive, why do you think you pay so much money more for the Laptop PC than for the equally powered desktop? Let's not even go into the pocket PC market which is actually what we should be comparing here. Pocket PC is what I'd consider a scaled down PC - and it's performance is CRAP compared to an equally priced desktop. How are you going to put a functional reproduction of a PS2 or a GC controller on a thin, pocketable device, and make it so it's not a pain in the butt to use?

Reasonably priced and reasonably sized pocketable PS2 and GC are simply speaking a pipedream for now.

GBA has the potential to deliver great games as does the home consoles and set-top boxes. What makes PSP so unique that you'd rather see games released for it than existing hardware? To me it's like Xbox... not needed.
I'm not going to go into the whole Xbox thing, and I'm not going to go into explanation what GBA and PSP are supposed to have over the home consoles (I think that much is obvious). However, PSP is going to have a lot over the GBA. First of all, you'd have a multimedia friendly games. Games with actual quality music and sound effects. The one game I's like to have on the PSP is Amplitude. Or Rez. I don't know if you've played them, but those games blend multimedia and gameplay really well, creating an enjoyable experience that I'd definitely like to have on a handheld. Or what about a Super Monkey Ball game that uses analog controls and has nice 3D graphics? Surely that is something that is going to be more enjoyable playing like that, than it is on the GBA.
 
akira888:
My question is if this is so expensive to build why didn't they go with something like MBX-VGP+MIPS4K that would be tiny (15 mm2 or so) and uber-cheap, and would most likely not even require eDRAM.
Ah, here you've touched upon the very essence of Sony and why their ambitions are not likable to the informed consumer. Why does Sony almost always design their own technology custom? Some people believed it had a lot to do with wanting to push the technological evelope, but it's actually about wanting a high-level of control over the properties and business operations from top to bottom.

It's a business plan, one that's been centric to their ambitions to the detriment of what they should have offered. Imagine how much more powerful PS2 could've been had they been willing to consider getting tech from a leader of the competitive market at the time like PowerVR. Imagine what a major player like Sony could do in the portable market with an MBX-based solution.

marconelly!:
Because they thought about it and it's not possible? I mean come on now, how big, power consuming, and expensive would that thing be?
Makes you appreciate DC's design that much more to realize it could essentially be done with that.
 
...

Food for thoughts.

ique-open10.jpg

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Nintendo could easily launch a portable N64 that downloads games from GC(Adapting from iQue) and price it $129 without losing money. How much graphical difference do you think you will see between a double-clocked N64 and PSP on 4" screen??? Not much.
 
Lazy8s said:
Ah, here you've touched upon the very essence of Sony and why their ambitions are not likable to the informed consumer. Why does Sony almost always design their own technology custom? Some people believed it had a lot to do with wanting to push the technological evelope, but it's actually about wanting a high-level of control over the properties and business operations from top to bottom.

It's a business plan, one that's been centric to their ambitions to the detriment of what they should have offered. Imagine how much more powerful PS2 could've been had they been willing to consider getting tech from a leader of the competitive market at the time like PowerVR. Imagine what a major player like Sony could do in the portable market with an MBX-based solution.

Sony is always like that, everything is propriety. That can be good and that can be bad. One of the good things is that there is no direct competition of the spec, since it is not the same kind of stuffs that can be compared.

With the designs of PS2, PSP and PS3, they simply cannot be compared directly to anything else that most people are familiar with (the desktop PC).

X-BOX uses off the shelf PC parts and are always being compared directly.

Another good thing is that you can make the concept facinating and sounds cool as the concept is not a conventional one.

Control is certainly the other good thing about propriety.

But as long as PSP is not severly underpowered, it will not lose to something more powerful as

1. No one can beat Sony's Style, yet
2. The screen is rather small
3. Sony PS brand is damn strong
4. Backed by major games development companies
5. It can be something else than just a gaming machine
6. Like PS3, it has been frequently talked about all over the world

The haters are indeed helping Sony :LOL:
 
Imagine how much more powerful PS2 could've been had they been willing to consider getting tech from a leader of the competitive market at the time like PowerVR.
I'm assuming you are talking about Naomi 2 based hardware, which even if they could get for cheap (which is questionable) would get them a deal with external company with a hardware they have no control over whatsoever (never a good thing). How exactly would the gamers benefit from that is up to speculation. Maybe the console would be more expensive as a result of that? They would have to reduce the amount of RAM compared to the Naomi 2 board anyways, which would basically end up being about the same quality hardware than what PS2 is already (better in some things, worse in others)

Imagine what a major player like Sony could do in the portable market with an MBX-based solution.
And what exactly could they do better than they are already doing? I mean, what exactly is the advantage of MBX over what they have planned? I'd be very surprised if that chip is any better than PSP (and specs don't show the advantage, from what I've seen) or if the device itself could be any cheaper with it. Sony would only end up paying royalties for an inferior hardware, when they have capability to produce everything on their own and not get into deals that can cost them headache later (like it happened to MS / nVidia where they not only had to pay them more than they thought they would, but now they probably shot themselves in the foot as far as backwards compatibility goes)

My question is if this is so expensive to build why didn't they go with something like MBX-VGP+MIPS4K that would be tiny (15 mm2 or so) and uber-cheap, and would most likely not even require eDRAM.
Because it is NOT uber-cheap. Pocket PCs today are fairly expensive even though their graphics chipsets are complete crap compared to MBX. There's this weird notion among some people here that you can build these ultra-small bleeding edge technology devices for no money whatsoever, but apparently it doesn't go like that in the real world.

How much graphical difference do you think you will see between a double-clocked N64 and PSP on 4" screen??? Not much.
That's... just laughable. I know exactly how PS1/N64 class games look on such screen (played the Tomb Raider on Pocket PC), and it's not very good. When you scale down graphics that looks that crappy, it remains crappy.
 
Lazy8s said:
akira888:
My question is if this is so expensive to build why didn't they go with something like MBX-VGP+MIPS4K that would be tiny (15 mm2 or so) and uber-cheap, and would most likely not even require eDRAM.
Ah, here you've touched upon the very essence of Sony and why their ambitions are not likable to the informed consumer. Why does Sony almost always design their own technology custom? Some people believed it had a lot to do with wanting to push the technological evelope, but it's actually about wanting a high-level of control over the properties and business operations from top to bottom.

It's a business plan, one that's been centric to their ambitions to the detriment of what they should have offered. Imagine how much more powerful PS2 could've been had they been willing to consider getting tech from a leader of the competitive market at the time like PowerVR. Imagine what a major player like Sony could do in the portable market with an MBX-based solution.

marconelly!:
Because they thought about it and it's not possible? I mean come on now, how big, power consuming, and expensive would that thing be?
Makes you appreciate DC's design that much more to realize it could essentially be done with that.

SCE has done its fair share of IP Licensing where it made sense for them.

Unless the whole Sony is willing to shut their fabs and become a mostly fab-less maker it makes n sense for them to go out and pay royaltes to tons of third parties which with your money and no risk involved for them develop competing R&D technology to sell to the highest bidder.

Sony Electronics followed a similar path, they could have dne more in-house, but they were licensing tons of stuff from third parties... they are one of the biggest money losers in Sony corp.

IMHO what SCE has said of doing stuff in-house ( still they do partner where it makes sense: see all the work with Toshiba, IBM, Rambus, etc... ) enabling them to go for the best technology possible is true and they have shown that in the past.

Being able to manufacture their HW ( yes, they might have licensed PVR's IP, but what if PVR3 was not ready yet when they were going in mass-production and PVR2 technology, the CLX2 chip, was linked in a deal to Sega ? ) has indeed allowed them to cut the costs of the PlayStation 2 chipset quite a bit over the years which is a good thing for Sony.
 
PC-Engine said:
ATI's new mobile chip cost $10...

Call me when it changes into a 2 MB of VRAM with 5.3 GB/s of bandwidth, 33 MVertices/s T&L + Hardware HOS Tessellating, 664 MPixels/s of fill-rate, etc... beast ;)

I am not knocking down ATI's chip ( it might be even on a similar level ), I just wanted to say that there is some reason also performance wise that Sony went with their design.

If Sony spends $10 ( add some R&D costs, divide them per chip produced and say it cost them $12 ) making a chip for a device they designed is still better than buying those chips from ATI at $10 each.

Why ?

Sony has the 90 nm manufacturing lines already, they need use and more chips made with their own fabs help to make efficient use of the R&D that went into those fabs.

Keeping one foot in the fabless manufacturer model and the other foot in the in-house IHV model is VERY risky: Sony Electronics vaporized Billions of Dollars making this and other odd choices.
 
Porting would be easier (of course who knows how hard it WILL be?), but that doesn't make it fanatically desired by the public, who would still have to repurchase games. If, however, they could play what they already own...? I could see EB stampedes being a leading cause of death in launch the launch month!
to me the gamecube media is perfect for a portable device. Much smaller than a dvd . I believe nintendo has had this plan the whole time.

Even if sony had to change the media for a portable ps2 the devs already have 5 years of dev time with a ps2. They could port over existing games or use existing engines to make new games for the portable. Perhaps even make gold version of other games with an extra few lvls or perhaps gta 3 and gta 3 vice city for one price of 30$.

They would sell.

I would have bought the system so i could play ps2 lvl games on a hand held .
 
They could port over existing games or use existing engines to make new games for the portable. Perhaps even make gold version of other games with an extra few lvls or perhaps gta 3 and gta 3 vice city for one price of 30$.

They would sell.

I would have bought the system so i could play ps2 lvl games on a hand held .

Some developers are doing that already: part ( not all ) of the "more RAM please" outcry is related to developers who want to carry their art assets and code ( with some changes in the code of course ;) ) from PlayStation 2 projects to PSP ones.

Thanks to a higher level programming model based on presumably more than decent libraries ( like the ones they provided for PSOne bakc in the days ) I do not see many developers facing the same steep learning curve they found with the PlayStation 2 so you should be able to enjoy your PlayStation 2-level graphics.
 
Im just afraid that the team doing the PSP graphics started too soon to learn from all the mistakes they made with the PS2.
 
MfA said:
Im just afraid that the team doing the PSP graphics started too soon to learn from all the mistakes they made with the PS2.

The current PSP project started AFTER PlayStation 2 was announced and launched which is way after the initial complaints arrived from Japanese and American developers IIRC.

The older project was canned by SCE and Sony and was started by Sony Electronics IIRC.

The GS was completed quite a long time ago and judging by the capabilities they put in the GPU, it is clear their philosophy is different from the one the GS was designed with.

Concern is not with simple peak performance and "leave things like clipping to the developers as implementing it in the GPU is a waste" is not the thought that IMHO has been driving PSP's development.
 
jvd said:
The rest of the world all fools, eh?
Still waiting for a reply to my two questions, btw.

Yes they are . I don't listen to marketing. People do though. I find out about a product and then reserch it and other products like it before i buy. I don't just buy it becasue its cool or a magic box with people in it told me .

Also what two questions were they . If i saw them i would have responded.

*Shrug* That's the problem with tech forums. With some exceptions, everyone thinks they're smarter than everyone else.

Questions right here. I tried to make them hard to miss, I guess I failed in that regard.

With regard to PSX: as Maskrider said, PSX made Sony the DVD Recorder market leader by itself in one week. That counts as smashing success to me. As to the "but how big is the market" argument, well, PSX is a DVD Recorder, and it is success in that market. If you're expecting it to sell in the volumes of game consoles, Sony has another product called PS2 that you might want to check out. Sony has the console market covered with PS2, it has the DVD recorder market covered with PSX. As the latter market grows, so will PSX sales.

Another question: How much does PSX need to sell to qualify as a success to you? Obviously 100k in one week doesn't satisfy you. So how much? 1 million, 10 million?

PSX is not going to sell in the volumes of a game console, because Sony already has PS2. Anyone who wants just a game console can get a PS2. You want Sony to have two consoles based on the same technology selling in the millions? I think Sony is a good company, but not a deity.

In summary, PSX is aiming for a different (and smaller) market, and it has captured a good percentage of that market. Lexus doesn't sell nearly as much as Chevy, but it is still a successful brand.
 
Lazy8s said:
It's a business plan, one that's been centric to their ambitions to the detriment of what they should have offered. Imagine how much more powerful PS2 could've been had they been willing to consider getting tech from a leader of the competitive market at the time like PowerVR. Imagine what a major player like Sony could do in the portable market with an MBX-based solution.

But it's not just Sony though. Time and time again we've seen PVR products in the marketplace fail (for whatever reason that needn't be brought up here) or have the licensee withdraw. Maybe they're seeing something that we don't.

Hopefully the handheld MBX will bring the success that the others failed to achieve.
 
marconelly!:

> The one game I's like to have on the PSP is Amplitude. Or Rez.

What's the point? You already have them on PS2 - with better (higher res anyway) graphics and better sound . In fact, anything that you can do on PSP can be done better on a console. And yes, I do realize that the same can be said about GBA but the difference between GBA and home consoles is that there's a market for 2d games on GBA.

> Or what about a Super Monkey Ball game that uses analog controls and
> has nice 3D graphics?

I already have that on GameCube.
 
Cybamerc, I find your comments funny, and I think it's quite obvious why. I'll ask you now, since you have a Gamecube, by the sentiment you are expressing here, why don't you just buy the GBA player for it, and give your GBA:SP to someone as a present? You obviously don't need it as you can play all your GBA games on the big screen anyways!

The reason why I would like to have Amplitude on the PSP is the same reason that you actually keep your GBA, and at times play games on it instead of playing them on the TV screen through the GBA player. Do I really need to go to such banal depths as to explain in what situations a handheld console might come in handy over the home console?
 
What's the point? You already have them on PS2

As much as I love my gba, couldn't you make the same argument there? At least, any self respecting SNES owner could. There are some neat gba exclusives (ie. non snes ports), but PSP will have those too (non PS2 ports that is).
 
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