Sniff sniff...smell that? Smells like Sucker Punch code/thoughts/ideas mixed with Naughty Dogg animation blending. Environment traversal 2.0? Could be.
[PS3] Uncharted 2
- Thread starter DieH@rd
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Sniff sniff...smell that? Smells like Sucker Punch code/thoughts/ideas mixed with Naughty Dogg animation blending. Environment traversal 2.0? Could be.
Gradthrawn
Veteran
My original thought on free climbing was very similar to your example, but it just didn't make sense to me in the context of Uncharted. At least, under the context of Drakes Fortune.
What you and el_rika are purposing would be a rather large departure from the constructs of the original. As I see it, it would pretty much necessitate a more "open world" design for each of the levels. At least each of the levels on an individual basis, not necessarily an open world design for the entire game.
Definitely possible, I would just be rather surprised to see them make such a huge design change for the sequel. Then again, Jak did go open-world. But even the level designs in the first Jak were more open than Uncharted. I guess we'll find out soon enough.
I agree. I think these gameplay additions are Naughty Dogg's response to the expectations many gamers apparently had for the first Uncharted. Many gamers expected something more in line with Tomb Raider regardless of anything else. The challenge for Naughty Dogg is to find the right middle ground between the Uncharted franchise's own unique identity and the exploration elements many have come to expect playing Tomb Raider games. Naughty can still make "their" game but if they don't do something to appease the masses there may be a price to pay. I'm sure ND is up to the challenge but I always worry a little for creative freedom in these situations.
Assassins creed doesn't have free climbing, it has climbing, but seeing as you can only climb where they've put a block for you to do so I wouldn't call it free.The term of "free climbing" is pretty much self explanatory in my opinion. It will probably be something similar to the climbing mechanics we had in Assassins Creed. Unless there's something else cooking here that is
In Uncharted's case, I hope it means an end to the stupid "jumping" when there's a perfectly good ledge to hang on to. It suggests to me that the levels will be far less linear too (and perhaps much larger) where climbing will actually give you alternative routes to the end of the section.
It is OBVIOUSLY the knife from the Golden Child. Eddy Murphy cameo incoming!
I don't understand exactly what you're trying to say - you can only climb where they've put a block for you to do so I wouldn't call it free.
I don't think climbing can get more "free" that in Assassins. Of course, the level design has to properfly support that and in the end it is still restricted, but "free" enough to give you the impression it isn't.
I mean, i don't want Drake to turn into some kind of Spiderman that can stick and climb on any surface (unless there's some plot device that justifies it of course).
The way i see it it'll be like this: When you have to climb a tower or a peak, you do it Assassins style, with smooth animations going from a little block of rock to another and you get maybe two points of entry and exit to spice things up a bit and give you the impression of freedom.
True free climbing would be fantastic, avoiding the inane realism-breaking limits of the first game. It doesn't need to be Spiderman style either. You could tag a surface with a 'climability' rating and depending n this, Nate can climb it or not, even switching to more struggling animations on harder surfaces where there's more chance of a (dangerous) mistake.
That's an interesting concept. If the terrain has a difficulty rating for traversal how would you like it to affect gameplay?
1) Slows Drake down contrasted with being chased or having a fixed amount to escape death.
2) The higher the rating the greater the chance for an accidental slip (not necessarily to death)
3) QTE's to help Drake recover from slippage a) using face buttons b) using sixaxis - think flailing out for dear life
4) Some combination of the above
5) purely aesthetic - no gameplay affect at all
6) ideas?
I would tie it in with natural expectations. An easy climb sees Nate whizz up it. And impossible climb sees him fail to start. A moderate difficult would slow the assent with searching limbs - you couldn't use a "quick vertical getaway" to climb yourself out of trouble. A hard climb would have a risk of slipping, with consequences depending on how far you fall, forcing the player to role-play the character. Would they really attempt to climb that shere cliff-face when they keep slipping all the time? Just because you can climb, doesn't mean you should, and the player should be guided into intelligent decision making IMO.
I see. How much assistance should be lent to the player?
If there are some cars, lamp posts, etc in the local area it is probably better that the player's intuition "just works." When it come to traversing large areas for whatever reason then the player and level designer need to be in agreements about what is easy, hard or otherwise to pull off. Intuition should allow players to survive in all cases but there should be easier and harder ways to do so.
There are basially two ways to keep players in sync with the designers intentions for a level. A waypoint system can be used or hints can be cooked into the level itself to accomplish the said goal, but which is better? Not all hints are equal but I feel subtle hints easily lend more to immersion and freedom. Hints like painting something a certain color or having it glow on command are not what I'm referring to. First some thoughts on using a way point system.
Take the latest PoP for instance. At almost no time do you have to figure out where you need to go because of the way point system. This is a good thing however... Many have said the game world feels "rigged" with certain paths you can follow...or you can die...except dying really isn't allowed either. The player always knows where to go but also can feel quite limited in what they can actually do on their own.
In contrast, the free-form world of Assassin's Creed allows players great freedom but the avatar never misses a grab/etc. All paths are the easy path for Altair as the avatar isn't ever worried about slipping.
Instead of ledges what if the avatar has to contend with slippery rocks, hot or near molten rocks, fleeting visibility, and surfaces that can snap or become dislodged when external weight is transfered to them?
Things get tricky or do they? Players can quickly surmise whether rocks are slippery, molten or not to solidly adjoined to a wall through the level's artwork. What this means is that players can use their intuition and with proper care the immersion of the player is heightened instead of cast aside to help players get from point A to point B. Too make things simpler lets create two groups of objects an avatar may use to traverse an area with group 1 being always safe and group 2 being variant with regards to being safe to traverse.
When presented with getting from point A to point B any combination safe and variant objects can be placed between points A and B. A simple mechanic would be to have more safe objects along one path between A and B but for that path to be longer, more accessible to enemies or what have you. Another path between A and B would have more variant objects along itself making it less accessible to enemies or the shortest path or what have you --- still, this path is innately more dangerous because the variant objects the avatar must interact with may case the player to be slowed to a crawl or at worse fall to death.
This system allows for free from traversal however this alone isn't anything new. This system is different in how the player is allowed to deal with the variant objects he or she may encounter. No game has introduced the concepts of weight, friction etc when it comes to environment traversal but now they can be.
A slippery rock is slippery so hands and feet can slide off of them. If a hand or foot slips the player needs to reset it slowing the player down. This is a gameplay mechanic that can be leveraged. A button press or a jab of a control stick towards the hand or foot could be used to reset the appendage. I prefer the latter as that's more visceral.
The same concept can be extended to heat or sticky goo on surfaces or what have you. A hand or foot slips or gets stuck and the player actively has to deal with it but in a fair manner. In some cases a slip etc coud be ignored altogether depending on footing etc. What's more is these "environment attributes" can be dilaed up and down and conveyed convincingly to the player with water running over rocks, heat glow or the increased sticky effluence of some creature.
Weight could be handled by sixaxis. If a variant object looks shacky the player could angle their sixaxis away from it so that the avatar's weight is centered on the other objects the avatar is in contact with. This would certainly allow for skill progression which is something avid gamers may enjoy. A route of escape/etc that is supposed to be difficult could become the easy route for skilled players where they could do a lot to reduce the chance for slips and falls using this mechanic.
None of this is going to be convincing without an extremely robust animation system.
Tie it all together well and we can get past jumping over crates, and spider man wall climbing. We may be able to get more immersive environments and gameplay by taking environment traversal to the next level.
I would love to see it anyway. I think all the pieces are in place now.
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Every one of the first four on that list makes controlling the character a complete pain in the ass, throw them all out.
Keep in mind that you should NEVER make a player wait too long for an animation during platforming or movement, or struggle with movement by slowing them down significantly, that is one of the most annoying thing you can do to a player.
Every one of the first four on that list makes controlling the character a complete pain in the ass, throw them all out.
That would be a matter of implementation in my opinion.
Why? Mobility is affected by ice, or hanging from ropes ledges etc near universally.
I agree with Kittonwy. As much as I am for immersive gameplay, there's also a reason why I chose a PS3 instead of a Wii. I don't want to battle the controls to keep Drake from falling, slipping etc. I want a game that has immersive story telling and most importantly fun and flawless controls/gameplay.
Also: what's fun about having Drake slip because of being on surface that's difficult (while on escape)? With the back turned towards his enemies, there would be little chance of survival (if you're going for realism, might as well have him death within a few shots in the back). In that sense, you'd be forcing the player to battle it out or find the correct way to escape giving less freedom to the player. Think of Call of Duty. You're basically in an open world, but the way you have to go is very linear since you have to stick to the chosen path. Anything else would be certain death. I'm not sure that's how I want my next Uncharted to turn out...
Also: what's fun about having Drake slip because of being on surface that's difficult (while on escape)? With the back turned towards his enemies, there would be little chance of survival (if you're going for realism, might as well have him death within a few shots in the back). In that sense, you'd be forcing the player to battle it out or find the correct way to escape giving less freedom to the player. Think of Call of Duty. You're basically in an open world, but the way you have to go is very linear since you have to stick to the chosen path. Anything else would be certain death. I'm not sure that's how I want my next Uncharted to turn out...
The fun is in the challenge of picking the best path and thinking on your feet. This is the same mechanic used in selecting paths regardless of slipping or not.
The controls are rather simple. You shouldn't have to fight them unless they're badly implemented. At most you have to hit a button or jab a stick in a certain direction in a reasonable amount of time. You could have a relative eternity to react..forever even.
There is no reason to stick to any path. Like any game that offers multiple paths there are positives and negative to selecting any given path. That's all. Choice is still there.
Certain death isn't anything I am describing for players who explore their options.
It's not that I don't understand that CRIPPLING problems can arise with poor implementation or that some simply don't want this particular challenge no matter how easy or how hard it could be. That's fair. I get that.
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Anytime where the player has to fight against the controls takes the fun out of the game by adding a level of unnecessary frustration, especially when it comes to "slippery ice" which has NEVER been fun. EVER. Presenting environmental obstacles when the player has on-the-dime controls is one thing, hindering responsiveness is a no-no, fighting to regain control of character is one of the most annoying thing that a developer can ever put in a game, it's only cool when YOU don't have to play it.
The proposed idea kind of reminds me of walking over a log, where regardless of how accurately you walk over it, the character will make hugely exagerated moves to the left or right forcing the player to use the sixaxis or analog controls to counter balance...
It worked out okay in Uncharted, but this was a serious annoyance in Tomb Raider Underground. If you add this kind of gameplay to regular surfaces where the effect might be instead of falling down, slipping out AND escaping enemies at the same time, I really don't see much fun in that...
It worked out okay in Uncharted, but this was a serious annoyance in Tomb Raider Underground. If you add this kind of gameplay to regular surfaces where the effect might be instead of falling down, slipping out AND escaping enemies at the same time, I really don't see much fun in that...
