PS3 to Launch with no HD?!?

[jvd]

f you want XBL alerts while watching TV, maybe X360 should have dual outputs like the PS3.

That makes no sense . Thats two out puts . Where are you going to input the image to put the alert ontop of it ?

Actually, anyone with a PIP TV could get that functionality. In fact, I play sometimes play while running a TV show in the other window. It's not PIP, it's Sony's Twin View so the pics are side by side and I can make one big while correspondingly making the other smaller.

Once again how do you get image on the screen ?

If you hook it into input 2 thats fine i guess you can have a box taking up your screen untill you get an invite ... kinda dumb but i guess you can then switch over .

It seems like MS is trying to go for people spending a lot of time connected to XBL, even if they're not playing a game or even chatting. But I thought there were going to be hooks to MSN Messenger as well?

Ms wants it to be that you can be contacted at any time by your friends for game invites . That way you can be watching a movie and a friend can say hey saw that you were just watching tv lets get a game of pdz going .

 

[ralexand]

Microsoft has said that they don't plan on any Tivo functionality.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Well, they still haven't explained what exactly J demoed when he watched the Footbal game but obviosuly there is some sort of functionality involving TV playback.

As far as the 360 not being able to encode and play games at the same time, I guess that could be an issue on games that really push the system. I know that on my A-64 3000+ my CPU only runs at 20-30% when encoding video, and I haver never noticed slow-down in games when a reording has started. But only 512MB of ram might impact that.

I'm fairly confident that with built in ethernet connectivity out of box, that the homebrew scene will explode. Last gen XBOX needed to be modded before you could interface with it, now it communicates with windows out of the box so homebrew software should have a much wider user base.

Someone may very well write a Tivo-like app. They tried for XBOX but just didn't have the resoucres to do it, but 360 should have a lot more support than XBOX did. PVR is really a very complex piece of software.

What would be great is if someone writes an app that is installed n the 360 (client) and PC(server) the PC would handle capturing encoding and storing. While the client on the 360 would handle playback, as well as scheduling etc. That's pretty much what I have now with XBMC on my XBOX, without the client-side scheduling, and it would be nice to see it integrated more into the main system.

See it's these possiblities that a HD offers. The more you think about it, the more potential really cool things you can see being done.

 

[one]

How about bundling a memstick (512MB or 1GB) instead of an HDD?

The answer, clearly, is NO. Sony has already admitted that the BR drive isn't being included to improve game play or game performance, its only there to act as a HD movie player.

Admitted? Where?

There are PS2 games that reach DVD9 without cramming FMV clips. Also, models for next-gen games require more data. Despite "but PC games hardly need the DVD space" cliche, there are no such PC games today that enjoy enough displacement maps and so on.

 

[AzBat]

It's pretty much confirmed that the only the TV recording functionality you'll get with the Xbox 360 is via a Windows Media Center PC. Think of the Xbox 360 as having the Xbox Media Center Extender built into the OS/Dashboard. The way it currently works on the Xbox is that you have to have the Media Center Extender DVD disk in the DVD drive to do any kind of MC functions remotely. You can't be playing Xbox game or be on Xbox Live in the background. It's an "either" "or" situtation currently. Xbox 360 will have it integrated. Just buy the new remote control and you can access your Windows Media Center PC via your network. There's a possibility that Microsoft might make different SKUs available later on where the Media Center funcitionality is merged with the Xbox 360, but the basic model will not be such a beast. Personally I don't see that happening, but who knows?

I believe there are a couple of reasons why MS is including a 20gb hard drive by default:

1) Developers seemed to want it.
2) Consumers seemed to demand it.
3) Backward compatibility needs it since there's evidently not going to be 2gb of default storage.
4) 20gb is probably the cheapest amount of storage they're able to get their hands on in the timeframe of their launch.

Like Joe, I too wonder if devs can count on the hard drive being there at all times? There was a tidbit awhile back saying something to the effect that devs can't count on a hard drive to be there. I suspect backward compatibility, Xbox Live features, Music and Media Center features will require the hard drive. Devs might have to rely on memory cards and main memory for caching if hard drive is not available.

Another thing I'm curious about is the lack of Dolby Digital, etc support or talk about the connections. I had hoped a digital optical port would be available by default, but I don't see it on the back. Nor do I see it on the pics of the cables. Anybody know what's up?

Tommy McClain

 

[jvd]

How about bundling a memstick (512MB or 1GB) instead of an HDD?

THat would be nice for sony but still the buyer looses out . That will still be 512mbs or 1gb vs 20 in the x360 .

As i've said x amount of dollars spent on media storage is x amount not spent on microtransactions .


So if i have an x360 and 100$ dollars to spend on the new maps and other things it will all go to those maps .

You on the other hand with a ps3 will either have to buy the media which costs y amount out of 100$ or use a memory stick they provided for you which has x amount of space till that is filled up .

Personaly if they launch for 400$ or more i would want them to throw in a hardrive. If its 300$ at launch i wouldn't mind it as much

 

[scooby_dooby]

Maybe it will be part of the plug, like the current AV pack is for the xbox.

Specs say it has: "Multi-channel surround sound output " and J allard said you got everything you needed for high-def out of the box, so I don't know if it will come with a cable, but it will have a big AV pack and I'm sure the optical port will be on there.
like this: http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/highdefinitionavpack.htm

Sorry, getting way off-topic here...

 

[j^aws]

I'm not sure what the big deal is with a lack of a standard HD. It would be a 'measly' sized standard HD too. My xbox HD acts like a glorified memory card at the moment. I just haven't bothered upgrading the HD like many others. An easy PS3 option to add a super 'fat' HD of MY choice seems reasonable.

Personaly, I know both the X360 and PS3 are not PC's but if they both had a simple memory upgrade path like an Amiga/ ST I'd be even happier!

 

[Acert93]

Well the point would be demos, movie trailers, microtransactions, downloadable content (maps, levels, weapons, characters), and the added versatility a large storage medium gives you for online games, MMOs, and other unique games (like a Mario paint). On the technical side it allows data caching to improve load times. And from a practical point of view it could allow some video recording (not sure if this is a native Xbox 360 feature although Allard did show a recorded NFL show... either way the PS3 is not a game console but a entertainment media device so including some PVR out of the box would add a forte to this point). And considering the number of people who watch TV/record STV vs. the number of people who have HD TVs, it is easy to see that a recording feature to a HDD would appeal to more customers. And as a customer it saves me from shelling out $20-$30 at launch for a small memory card. As online become more and more relevant to the consoles a HDD will be used more often. And while HD TV is the future, Broadband is the present. Broadband connections world wide are expected to break 215M this year (about 40M in the US... both totals crush HD TV sales). Unlike the Xbox, Xbox 360 ships with live AND many of the features will be FREE to everyone. i.e. The install base of Live will go up significant from Day 1 and therefore the HDD will find itself used even more. This is even more true in that MS has a lot more exclusive support this time around. Ports are not going away, but one of the biggest strengths of the Xbox was that it had superior ports. But since neither the PS2 or GCN had any relevant mass storage support this feature was not used by ports. While that will probably again be true, MS has established itself in the market and will get more direct developer support, which in turn will mean more developers use the HDD.

On the reverse, not including the device standard, guarantees it will be a catch 22: Developers wont fully utilize it because not only PS3 owners have a HDD, and consumers wont all jump on the HDD band wagon because developers under utlize the device. The PS2 is a perfect example of this. It was so underutilized that Sony even removed the HDD slot. But as a gamer, who buys game consoles primarily for gaming functions, media options that do not directly compliment gaming are a waste for me and many consumers.

And while a 20GB HDD wont meet every persons TV recording needs, it is enough for the primary uses of the device. And for those who need bigger HDD they can easily upgrade.

 

[mckmas8808]

On the reverse, not including the device standard, guarantees it will be a catch 22: Developers wont fully utilize it because not only PS3 owners have a HDD, and consumers wont all jump on the HDD band wagon because developers under utlize the device. The PS2 is a perfect example of this. It was so underutilized that Sony even removed the HDD slot.

And while a 20GB HDD wont meet every persons TV recording needs, it is enough for the primary uses of the device. And for those who need bigger HDD they can easily upgrade

I agree with almost your whole post, but definetly this part. Sony shipping without a HDD will be a BIG problem. If Ken K. can say that the PS3 is not a videogame machine but a computer entertainment device then why not add a HDD. For everything that Acert93 said and more the HDD will be as big of use as the internet feature is a this two consoles.

I think Sony is really waiting to see if MS adds a HDD or not. I think if MS does it at launch Sony will follow. It would be stupid of Sony to see its closes competitor have something standard thats not really that expensive and not have it standard too. Make it 10GBs if price is an issue I don't care. Just give us something Sony.

 

[Acert93]

Gollum has an entire list of ideas on this thread also.

Another advantage to a standard HDD is developers can develop Expansion Packs to be offered for download online. Knowing that all customers have a HDD would be a lot of security for making the time investment and could be a financial perk for developers who typically spend 2-4 years to make a game. Reusing the cut material and already created engine and art assets to make extra money is a good idea. I expand on that idea in the thread linked above.

Basically there is no end to the uses of a HDD. If Sony, as the market leader pushed the HDD, it could be a big perk to developers.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Well, they still haven't explained what exactly J demoed when he watched the Footbal game but obviosuly there is some sort of functionality involving TV playback.

Like Tommy said above the Superbowl video was demonstrating the Xbox 360's ability to view content recorded on a Media Center PC connected to the network. Neither the PS3 or Xbox 360 have tuners so they can't act as DVR/Tivo devices on their own. Both are supposed to be multimedia devices, but it's all coming over the network. Either music/movie downloads from the internet, or from connected devices, like iPods or MCE PCs. Hey, Sony should talk to Tivo about supporting Tivo to Go.

 

[randycat99]

Assuming PC connectivity is supported (being that they made the point to put in multiple ethernet ports), the whole "missing HD means missing capabilities" issue becomes largely moot. PC's infiltrate a great number of households, and likely that number overlaps potential PS3 users, as well. A PC will be on hand, a home network and HD storage will greatly likely be present, as well. If the PS3 can take advantage of the "HD" nearly everybody already owns, then the savings of not putting one in every single PS3 to be sold will have made a whole lot of sense.

 

[Brad Grenz]

That's a good point. KK talked about what they called "Cell Storage", but who's to say what that means. If the PS3 can access shared disk space on the network or NAS devices out of the box that solves lots of problems. Pack in a CD with a Windows applet that runs in your system tray and all your MP3s and videos can be accessed by the PS3 in a seemles manner. Lots of networked media players already do this. Nice in that you don't have to duplicated your media files across multiple devices. Why eat up 10 gigs in your PS3 for MP3s that already eat up 10 gigs on you PC?

 

[scooby_dooby]

Well, they still haven't explained what exactly J demoed when he watched the Footbal game but obviosuly there is some sort of functionality involving TV playback.

Like Tommy said above the Superbowl video was demonstrating the Xbox 360's ability to view content recorded on a Media Center PC connected to the network. Neither the PS3 or Xbox 360 have tuners so they can't act as DVR/Tivo devices on their own. Both are supposed to be multimedia devices, but it's all coming over the network. Either music/movie downloads from the internet, or from connected devices, like iPods or MCE PCs. Hey, Sony should talk to Tivo about supporting Tivo to Go.

obviously, that's exactly what I was saying. I was wondering how the networked PVR would integrate into the 360 system. Also, it would probably be possible to get an add-on capture box, or tv-in.

here's MS CEO Steve Bullmer on the exact subject:

Q: Look past the gaming aspects of the console, how does the Xbox 360 serve as Microsoft’s beachhead into the living room. A 20GB hard drive isn’t a lot of space for storage, but since it does have this broadband connection, how is it going to integrated with IPTV, streaming video, and streaming audio?


A: Three things: Number one, who knows what configurations will be there by the time we’re done. I think that’s important to say. Number two, because you do have the network connectivity, whether you have a Media Center PC or not. You can put an awfully big hard disk on a regular PC and plug into this ecosystem, we have plenty of extensibility in terms of storage. And then number three, you take the IP TV work we’re doing, and that technology can run on a PC, on a set top box, it can run on an Xbox. So there will be, in conjunction with the work we do with the video delivery companies, particularly the telcos, who have tended to be our strongest customers for our IPTV stuff, there will be yet another way to acquire and use video content. So you have set tops, you have the set top experience, you have the Xbox, you’ve got a big hard disk, you’ve got networked to the PC in the home, so I think there will be a lot of ways to get that media onto the Xbox.

also, having a network HD does not give the same functionalities are a built in, sure you could stream video and audio but that's about it.

 

[Chandler]

That's a good point. KK talked about what they called "Cell Storage", but who's to say what that means. If the PS3 can access shared disk space on the network or NAS devices out of the box that solves lots of problems. Pack in a CD with a Windows applet that runs in your system tray and all your MP3s and videos can be accessed by the PS3 in a seemles manner. Lots of networked media players already do this. Nice in that you don't have to duplicated your media files across multiple devices. Why eat up 10 gigs in your PS3 for MP3s that already eat up 10 gigs on you PC?

I think this is precisely whats going happen. The Sony interviews have said they are very interested in player made content (the so called 360 microtransactions) and tiny addons to games. It would be simple since its Wified out of the box. And the HDD option will be there for people without networks. Its very easy to access content by just sharing a folder on your PC. As for saving games and addons, maybe make a folder called "PS3stuff" that the PS3 will automatically read/write to. It's enough bandwidth to access to in games.

 

[Brad Grenz]

You can stream video and music, save games, store downloaded content, including levels, demos and games. Really the only thing you wouldn't want to do is use it for virtual memory.

 

[wco81]

I don't understand the appeal of streaming from a MC PC to the X360. Or from a set top box with IPTV (stream a set top content to another set top?).

You can hook a MC PC or a TV set top directly to the TV itself.

What advantage is there in going through the X360? You have to turn on two noisy, power-hungry boxes and you're streaming (either ethernet or 801.11a) content.

Maybe if you have a limited number of inputs on the TV.

Same thing with music. There are simpler ways to get at your digital music library. Either stream it to your receiver and sound system directly or listen with headphones directly from the iPod or some other MP3 player.

Why do you want to hook the iPod to the X360? Or create another digital music library which can only be played on the console (you can't for instance burn CDs with tracks from that library or load your iPod from the X360)?

You won't be able to download music to your X360 library directly will you? Certainly not from iTMS or P2P. Maybe from Napster and Yahoo Music, since they're using MS DRM. But wouldn't you need the Napster and Yahoo clients or maybe they will port WMP 10 to the X360?

Or maybe MS expects you to stream the DRM digital music from a Media Center?

 

[Bjorn]

You can hook a MC PC or a TV set top directly to the TV itself.

What advantage is there in going through the X360?

The problem with just using a HTPC is that you need to buy a rather expensive case and waste a lot of money to get it quiet. And then you have the problem with HD's. Just one is rarely enough and there are often problem with adding a lot of hd's in a htpc case. Having the HTPC as a separate server like machine allows you to spend the money on the case, silent.. on more hd's and a faster machine. Then you have the added benefit of being able to connect to the "server" from other clients, or extenders as MS like to call them.

 

[one]

Assuming PC connectivity is supported (being that they made the point to put in multiple ethernet ports), the whole "missing HD means missing capabilities" issue becomes largely moot.

KK talked about what they called "Cell Storage", but who's to say what that means. If the PS3 can access shared disk space on the network or NAS devices out of the box that solves lots of problems. Pack in a CD with a Windows applet that runs in your system tray and all your MP3s and videos can be accessed by the PS3 in a seemles manner.

no.
kk and sony always wants PS to beat the pc, not work with it.

Hmm, to me it looks PSP - PC connectivity is vital to enjoy non-gaming functions of PSP for now? Sony even sells PCs.