PS3 Graphics: Shader 3.0?

[jvd]

Well i think the geforce fx was a bigger slap in the face


Regardless it seems like the big reason why ati has no sm3.0 part out is because of the r400 and r500 and xenon. So i don't think ms cares about dx 9 as much as they care about having the best in xenon . So if it was a toss up between them getting a r500 for the xenon and only sm2.0 till the end of 05 on the pc or them getting something less than an r500 cause ati had to get a sm3.0 chip out i think they would have surely pick the first choice

 

[V3]

Well i think the geforce fx was a bigger slap in the face

Well I thought they had guts earlier, but then they conformed

Regardless it seems like the big reason why ati has no sm3.0 part out is because of the r400 and r500 and xenon. So i don't think ms cares about dx 9 as much as they care about having the best in xenon . So if it was a toss up between them getting a r500 for the xenon and only sm2.0 till the end of 05 on the pc or them getting something less than an r500 cause ati had to get a sm3.0 chip out i think they would have surely pick the first choice

Yes, you probably right, MS doesn't give too much care with DX9.

 

[Arun]

Anything beyond SM3.0. but perhaps for a few specific features is ridiculous for a console at this point. Features you can't use at all for performance reasons just don't belong in modern console designs.

Uttar

 

[jvd]

Yes, you probably right, MS doesn't give too much care with DX9.

I don't mean they don't care at all . I mean that ati is putting out dx 9 chips , it may not be full dx 9 chips as sm3.0 isn't offered but at least its dx 9 and its my understadning that wgf 1.0 is sm 2.0 dx 9 . So that should be all that matters

 

[nAo]

How to derail a potentially interesthing thread. Thanks.

 

[Wunderchu]

seems like this person will be in charge of customizing the API they will be using for the NVIDIA 's GPU in PS3; (i.e.: this person will be incharge of "the creation and development of Sony¹s response to DirectX"):

Job Type: Full Time
The Position:
Lead Software Engineers * Next Generation Platform

Santa Monica, San Diego, Foster City CA

Sony Computer Entertainment America (SCEA) is seeking a Lead Software Engineer. Join a team creating the system software to power Sony¹s next generation games. Lead the creation and development of Sony¹s response to DirectX, in close cooperation with our online and 3d groups. Inspire a team to create the world¹s best game system software.

Qualifications:
* Looking for the top 1% in the game business.
* Track record of creating leading game technology.
* 10+ years experience in Asm, C, C++.
* Technical Director or Lead Engineer in 2+ technically brilliant titles.
* Excellent planning/documentation skills mandatory.
* Japanese a plus.

The Lead Software Engineer has the following responsibilities:
Lead the creation of Sony¹s response to DirectX. Lead the architectural design and personally create major portions of the implementation.

1. Technology leader in the game business.
In-depth understanding of multiple assembly languages, multi-threaded programming, C and C++. Experience in a multi-processor environment, and with kernel level and driver level programming. Understanding of .Net, C# and XML, Python. Experience with systems level console programming and with DirectX or Nintendo¹s equivalent a big plus. Proven ability to create powerful new systems.

2. Game systems programming
Personally lead the creation of SCEA portable OS and hardware abstraction layer. The main responsibility of this position is to develop the low and mid level code libraries for the next generation system.
* ASM, C & C++ programming using SN, GNU tools and various other compilers.
* Target-Host communication, profiling and debugging - Lead the development of systems to enable efficient target-host development.
* Test Scripts - Lead the development of unit tests and other automated systems and scripts to ensure extremely high reliability.

3. Systems Design
The person in this position will lead the architecture and design of the OS abstraction and hardware abstraction layers.
* Collaborate via phone, email, SourceForge and in person with SCEA¹s best technologies to design a system that efficiently exploits the amazing capabilities of the next generation system.
* Design, specify and write design documentation. Teach how to document and plan and review plans of others.
* Work with manager of tools to schedule and prioritize work

4. Tool Programming
The Software lead will be the key liaison with the tools efforts. Candidate will be required to assist in the development of the target-host system and the run-time players for authored content.
* This requires programming in C++ and C using GNU and SN systems compilers.

[source: http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=328909&page=30&pp=15 ]

 

[one]

How about using the GoForce mobile core? It's now OpenGL/ES 1.1 compliant and will incorporate OpenGL/ES 2.0 in the future.

 

[Panajev2001a]

How about using the GoForce mobile core? It's now OpenGL/ES 1.1 compliant and will incorporate OpenGL/ES 2.0 in the future.

I do not think it is what they want for performance resons.

It will be a customization of their GeForce 7 architecture: this is what they have stated multiple times. I do not think that by "next generation architecture... successor to the GeForce 6 family of GPU's" they meant a "simple" NV4X refresh.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I remember that job posting being out an age back. Since then it's been suggested PS3 will use OGL, which also adds portability into other Cell devices. Is there any time-line for evidence and rumours? Is this posting for a DX alternative post-OGL discussion? Is there any evidence at all that Sony are actually going with OGL and it's not pie-in-the-sky speculation?

 

[Panajev2001a]

They are members of the Khronos group... I hope SCE bothered to join that group for some reason since they are paying money and helping shape the OpenGL ES standard.

 

[Megadrive1988]

How about using the GoForce mobile core? It's now OpenGL/ES 1.1 compliant and will incorporate OpenGL/ES 2.0 in the future.

I do not think it is what they want for performance resons.

It will be a customization of their GeForce 7 architecture: this is what they have stated multiple times. I do not think that by "next generation architecture... successor to the GeForce 6 family of GPU's" they meant a "simple" NV4X refresh.

PS3 GPU is *probably* based on the GeForce 7 architecture, yes. but lets be careful here. Nvidia could easily name their NV40 refresh (NV47, NV48, G70) the 'GeForce 7' or GeForce 7xxx. Remember that the GeForce 1 (GF256) and GeForce 2 were both NV1x architectures (NV10 and NV15) and then, GeForce 3 and GeForce 4 were both NV2x architectures (NV20 and NV25). then to confuse things even more, the GeForce 4 MX was a NV1x architecture (NV17).

so while Nvidia has become somewhat better at naming their GPUs lately: i.e. the NV30 "GeForce 5" was called GeForce 5800 and NV35 was called GeForce 5900 and now the NV40 "GeForce 6" is GeForce 6800, you never know with Nvidia's naming schemes (and to be fair, with ATI's as well).

the PS3 GPU could be NV5x or NV6x.

...and is NV5x the GeForce 7 series? is the NV6x the GeForce 8 series ? has the NV5x been scrapped, or modified and/or rolled into the NV6x? is PS3 GPU based on NV5x or NV6x ? questions, questions, eh?

we will not know for a while yet. all we know is what Nvidia has said, the PS3 GPU will be an implementation of their next major architecture, which will also show up in PCs. probably in 2006. or late this year? Nvidia has not said much about their upcoming and future GPUs. less than ATI has said (see Dave Orton's interview for ATI stuff)

so although you are most likely correct Panajev, that PS3 GPU is a customization of GeForce 7, we just don't know for 100% certain. we especially don't know what the GPU (that will probably be named GeForce7) actually is, as far as Nv5x or Nv6x generation. Also, it is possible, however unlikely, that the Xbox2 info getting to Sony and Nvidia might cause (or has caused) a few shifts in plans.... okay, probably not, since PS3 is such a huge thing and needs to come out pretty much on schedual for a whole lot of reasons...

btw, I agree with you Panajev, that PS3 GPU will not be an NV4X refresh or anything based on NV40 or an NV4X GPU. PS3 GPU *will* be some NV5X or NV6X derivative. and when I say NV6X, I mean something along the lines of ATI R400 becoming R500. *not* a totally new generation beyond NV5X. the R300 was a new generation beyond the R200. the NV40 was a new generation beyond over NV30/35. but the GeForce 4ti was not a new generation beyond GeForce3.

okay, nevermind me, just babbling away... 8)

 

[Dave Baumann]

As I mentioned in the news item, timing is the critical issue and you have to consider where they are taking the part from.

 

[London Geezer]

How about using the GoForce mobile core? It's now OpenGL/ES 1.1 compliant and will incorporate OpenGL/ES 2.0 in the future.

I do not think it is what they want for performance resons.

It will be a customization of their GeForce 7 architecture: this is what they have stated multiple times. I do not think that by "next generation architecture... successor to the GeForce 6 family of GPU's" they meant a "simple" NV4X refresh.

PS3 GPU is *probably* based on the GeForce 7 architecture, yes. but lets be careful here. Nvidia could easily name their NV40 refresh (NV47, NV48, G70) the 'GeForce 7' or GeForce 7xxx. Remember that the GeForce 1 (GF256) and GeForce 2 were both NV1x architectures (NV10 and NV15) and then, GeForce 3 and GeForce 4 were both NV2x architectures (NV20 and NV25). then to confuse things even more, the GeForce 4 MX was a NV1x architecture (NV17).

so while Nvidia has become somewhat better at naming their GPUs lately: i.e. the NV30 "GeForce 5" was called GeForce 5800 and NV35 was called GeForce 5900 and now the NV40 "GeForce 6" is GeForce 6800, you never know with Nvidia's naming schemes (and to be fair, with ATI's as well).

the PS3 GPU could be NV5x or NV6x.

...and is NV5x the GeForce 7 series? is the NV6x the GeForce 8 series ? has the NV5x been scrapped, or modified and/or rolled into the NV6x? is PS3 GPU based on NV5x or NV6x ? questions, questions, eh?

we will not know for a while yet. all we know is what Nvidia has said, the PS3 GPU will be an implementation of their next major architecture, which will also show up in PCs. probably in 2006. or late this year? Nvidia has not said much about their upcoming and future GPUs. less than ATI has said (see Dave Orton's interview for ATI stuff)

so although you are most likely correct Panajev, that PS3 GPU is a customization of GeForce 7, we just don't know for 100% certain. we especially don't know what the GPU (that will probably be named GeForce7) actually is, as far as Nv5x or Nv6x generation. Also, it is possible, however unlikely, that the Xbox2 info getting to Sony and Nvidia might cause (or has caused) a few shifts in plans.... okay, probably not, since PS3 is such a huge thing and needs to come out pretty much on schedual for a whole lot of reasons...

btw, I agree with you Panajev, that PS3 GPU will not be an NV4X refresh or anything based on NV40 or an NV4X GPU. PS3 GPU *will* be some NV5X or NV6X derivative. and when I say NV6X, I mean something along the lines of ATI R400 becoming R500. *not* a totally new generation beyond NV5X. the R300 was a new generation beyond the R200. the NV40 was a new generation beyond over NV30/35. but the GeForce 4ti was not a new generation beyond GeForce3.

okay, nevermind me, just babbling away... 8)

*MAJOR HEADACHE*

 

[BOOMEXPLODE]

Remember NV4x/NV5x/NV6x/whatever are all just internal names Nvidia uses. They could take the NV4x and add some blinking lights to the PCB and call it a NV5x, the name doesn't really tell you anything. Remember what Nvidia is quoted as saying to investors on the main page...

I think you’ll see the industry move up a little bit in performance. But I don’t think you’ll see any radical changes in architecture. I doubt you’ll see any radical changes in architecture even in the fall. When we came out with GeForce 6, we tend to create a revolutionary architecture about every actually two years. And then we derive from it for the following time. So even the devices that we announced this fall, that will be I think a lot more powerful than the ones we actually had a year ago. Architecturally we’re still in the shader model three type era.

Elsewhere Nvidia have said the PS3 GPU is based on the next-generation hardware. Here, they're saying the next-generation hardware is not a "radical change" but simply "a lot more powerful". So, that suggests NV5x/Geforce 7/PS3 GPU will be derived from the Geforce 6 generation.

 

[AlNom]

Qualifications:
* Looking for the top 1% in the game business.
* Track record of creating leading game technology.
* 10+ years experience in Asm, C, C++.
* Technical Director or Lead Engineer in 2+ technically brilliant titles.
* Excellent planning/documentation skills mandatory.

*cough* John Carmack *cough*

* Japanese a plus.

...just dye the hair black and um...... never mind.

 

[marconelly!]

Here, they're saying the next-generation hardware is not a "radical change" but simply "a lot more powerful".

Actualy, that guy is saying he "doubts" there will be a radical change. Weird comment for someone who is from nVidia, but that's exactly what he said.

Perhaps that guy has no real knowledge on the technical development of nVidia and is just working on the financial side of the things? It's just weird that someone in the know would say things like "I doubt" or "I don't think you'll see".

Or for that matter, he says that the industry would just move a little in performace. Come on, even the gaming forums bottom dweller know at this point that ATI aims to release a major change in the architecture with their R500 for the Xbox 2 and R600 for the PC, and that technology should be ready fairly soon considering Nov/Dec Xbox 2 launch.