PS3 Entitlements

[scooby_dooby]

If you get 50% through a game and stop, it's because the game is too long for you. Better games would leave you playing to the end without needing to 'bribe' you with extras.

Achievements are not really intended to motivate you to finish a game, they're intended to add replay value to the levels, or cause you to play longer trying to get the perfect score.

Most games will only give you a fraction of the achievements for finishing the game. If you had more experience with games using achievements you'd realize this, I think you have a misunderstanding of the types of things these achievements consist of. I can think of no games that use them as a 'bribe' to finish the game.

 

[Sis]

Well, I'd like to think this would happen. I don't know how it is on Live, but I know on iTunes if you need to redownload stuff, you're screwed AFAIK, and you have to pay again to get it. They see it as your own responsibility to back stuff up, but it seems a little needless if they can keep track of everything you've paid for (as they do).

On Live, if you buy a game it gets tied to the console and your gamertag. Either one can then play an unlocked version of the game, regardless of re-downloading.

 

[Powderkeg]

Seems like everyone wants Sony's online network to be more like xbox live, but when they attempt the same features it gives them a negative connotation of being copy-cats. But if they leave out those features they are seen as being not as good. It's a lose lose it seems.

That's what happens when you are a follower and not a leader.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Achievements are not really intended to motivate you to finish a game, they're intended to add replay value to the levels, or cause you to play longer trying to get the perfect score.

I was responding to angelcurio's comment

Now regarding the system, i would be more interested in a system that gives me a real reward for playing through a game. i.e. if i manage to complete a 75% of GT5, they would give me a free Car or road Pack. THat would inspire me to play more, and really try to beat or finish the game

I wasn't talking about Live's implementation.

 

[Titanio]

On Live, if you buy a game it gets tied to the console and your gamertag. Either one can then play an unlocked version of the game, regardless of re-downloading.

That's good, how it should be. I would assume/hope Sony will have the same policy.

 

[cthellis42]

That is the stupidest name I have ever heard.

...as stupid as "Ad-hoc" and "Infrastructure" to refer to your portable's wireless modes, or naming your console "Wii?" or "360" with no real marketing use of the number?

 

[cthellis42]

I beat kameo and yet I didn't get the full achivement score becuase I couldn't find some of the items I was looking for. This caused me to go back and play it some more looking for them. So yes, there is indeed value to this system.

For reference, yes and no. From a single-title perspective, it's basically put a point score attachment to "unlocks" and made said score sharable, which I think if fine from an amusement and "showoff" standpoint.

On a global scale, one's total "Gamerscore" (or whatever one wants to call it) is not remotely balancable, completely arbitrary within the titles, and is amusing only on the surface. I forget if you can show your Gamerscore but refuse to show the inner mechanisms (what you got from title to title and from which awards), but the overall score otherwise gets too much weight attached from the cock-comparison fights and seems mainly like a device to encourage the kiddies to play as much as possible from the most worthwhile games to score in. (The "play more" bit rather seems like a "duh" point, doesn't it? ) Certainly most won't care, but I don't see it as precisely beneficial.

I'd rather see a Meyers-Briggs style "descriptor" for your overall gaming habits (what you play and in what concentration), then let people dig from title to title to see your actual "score" within the individual games, where you can functionally make point comparisons and the arbitrariness matters less. (The developer can still weight things poorly, but at least everyone plays through the same imbalance. )


Meanwhile, on the name of the thing, I think "entitlements" is indeed too unwieldy and presumptuous-sounding, and a much simpler "awards" or even "medals" would be far preferable. Though a certain part of me wants to hearken back to old-school gaming terminology and call them all "checkpoints." :smile:

 

[scooby_dooby]

On a global scale, one's total "Gamerscore" (or whatever one wants to call it) is not remotely balancable, completely arbitrary within the titles, and is amusing only on the surface. I forget if you can show your Gamerscore but refuse to show the inner mechanisms (what you got from title to title and from which awards), but the overall score otherwise gets too much weight attached from the cock-comparison fights

When I compare scores I never look at the total score, you're right it's meaningless. You just click buddy's name, select any one of the games we''ve both played, and then scroll through to see what achievements we both have, and what we're each missing.

 

[Powderkeg]

Achievements and Gamescore are pure marketing tools.

The basic premise is that if you give 2 people unequal items they are going to compare. If you give them a choice in which item they can have they will compete. Humans like to compare and compete, even over the most trivial of reasons, so adding that factor in to their games and services adds to sales.

And frankly I doubt any of the top 1,000 Gamerscore people on XBL would have played anywhere near that many games had it not been for the Gamescore and Achievements.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Achievements and Gamescore are pure marketing tools.

The basic premise is that if you give 2 people unequal items they are going to compare. If you give them a choice in which item they can have they will compete. Humans like to compare and compete, even over the most trivial of reasons, so adding that factor in to their games and services adds to sales.

And frankly I doubt any of the top 1,000 Gamerscore people on XBL would have played anywhere near that many games had it not been for the Gamescore and Achievements.

They are tools for different types of gamers, the completionist gamers, and the competetive gamers.

Marketing tool is a totally inaccurate description, it is not used for marketing nearly as much as extending replayability of a game. What percentage of consumers do you think buy games simply to increase their overall gamerscore?

I would guess the percentage is a TINY minority, while the majority simple buy the games they like, and then may or may not use the achievements to increase the replay value.

 

[Powderkeg]

They are tools for different types of gamers, the completionist gamers, and the competetive gamers.

Marketing tool is a totally inaccurate description, it is not used for marketing nearly as much as extending replayability of a game.

The vast majority of games give their full points and Achievments in the single player game. Rarely do they actually add to replayability.

And even if they did, that's still a form of marketing. It's not there to make the game better, it's there to make you want the game more.

What percentage of consumers do you think buy games simply to increase their overall gamerscore?

20-30% buy or at least rent a game or two just to increase their gamerscore would be my guess, based on looking at the vast amounts of mediocre games with easy Achievements.

I would guess the percentage is a TINY minority, while the majority simple buy the games they like, and then may or may not use the achievements to increase the replay value.

So? How would that disprove it's there for marketing reasons?

And what about rentals? Yeah, if you limit your sample to only those willing to make a $60 purchase I can see you would would arrive at your conclusion, but what if you factor in the $5-$10 game rentals? I mean, certainly there is a percentage of people who in the midst of a game drought say "there is nothing new to buy, so maybe I'll rent this. At least it's an easy boost to my gamerscore."

 

[patsu]

Sounds different to me.

Achievements seems more like a ladder system for gamers. I suppose because of the perceived difference in status/ranking/achievements, some people will interact on XBL more to gain further achievements through game play. I don't think it will attract non-XBL users to sign up XBL. Can you exchange achievements for stuff like what you can do for mileage ? (i.e., is it a currency ?).

If it's under the Commerce section, Sony's Entitlement sounds more like a traditional customer loyalty scheme, for non-gaming and gaming functions. The more you spent on Sony's Network Platform, the more entitlements you have. I don't think Sony will care how many times you have replayed a particular game (or how complete you have explored a game) _if_ they don't get additional income from it. It's an additional overhead/load/cost for little benefits in a "free" online game infrastructure. I can understand why XBL wants to encourage usage (via Achievements and other things) since it's charging a subscription fee for it.

*If* used as a currency, Entitlement can also be used for micro-payment but none of this is of course reported.

From an engineer/developer's point of view, they are both "just" gathering points and awards but the marketing concept can be day and night. Just taking a guess from what little info we have.

 

[nintenho]

...as stupid as "Ad-hoc" and "Infrastructure" to refer to your portable's wireless modes, or naming your console "Wii?" or "360" with no real marketing use of the number?

It doesn't sound flashy enough and you don't earn an entitlement.

 

[scooby_dooby]

The vast majority of games give their full points and Achievments in the single player game. Rarely do they actually add to replayability.

This was true somewhat for the first crop of games, as developers were not using their imagination, though it is not at all true for the majority of games. Most give you only a fraction for completing the game, usually less than 50%, and usually on the hardest difficulty.

And even if they did, that's still a form of marketing. It's not there to make the game better, it's there to make you want the game more.

Let me remind you of your original statement: "Achievements and Gamescore are pure marketing tools."

You never said it was just a form of marketing, you claimed their only purpose is as a marketing tool. I'm saying that, not only is it not the only purpose, but it's probably one of the the least important.

20-30% buy or at least rent a game or two just to increase their gamerscore would be my guess, based on looking at the vast amounts of mediocre games with easy Achievements.

Meh, I think that's extremely high, considering only 50% even bother to go online at all. I would argue that people who don't go online don't care about gamerscore at all, which means you would need 40%-60% of the online gamers to be fixated with gamerscore for your estimate to be true. 40% is extremely high, especially when you're talking about a demographic in their mid 20's who will see right through this silly point system.

So? How would that disprove it's there for marketing reasons?

And what about rentals? Yeah, if you limit your sample to only those willing to make a $60 purchase I can see you would would arrive at your conclusion, but what if you factor in the $5-$10 game rentals? I mean, certainly there is a percentage of people who in the midst of a game drought say "there is nothing new to buy, so maybe I'll rent this. At least it's an easy boost to my gamerscore."

I said it was only used slightly as a marketing tool, not that it was not a marketing tool at all.

The vast majority of gamers would simply say "there is nothing new to buy, so maybe I'll rent this." only a small percentage would care whether it was "an easy boost to my gamerscore."

Bottom line is only a small minority of gamers care about some virtual penis measuring contest, especially when they realize how arbitrarily the points are awarded between games. To refer to it as a pure marketing tool is silly, sure that is one small aspect, it has a much more meaningful impact which is extending replayability of the games.

Example: When I see an achievement in Geometry Wars for staying alive 60 seconds without firing a single shot, I don't give a crap it's only worth 10 points. It sounds like fun, and I'll subsequently spend hours trying to complete this task. That is the true benefit of achievements. Take a look at Saint's Row for another example, less than 300 points can be gained by completing the game, the other 700 is reserved for extending replay value.
http://www.achieve360points.com/game/saintsrow/

I used it extensively in Oblivion as well, to identify which guilds I hadn't tried yet, again extending replay value.

 

[AlNom]

Can you exchange achievements for stuff like what you can do for mileage ? (i.e., is it a currency ?).

Unfortunately not.... I was hoping for some sort of currency exchange, something like 10 gamer points to 1 "microsoft point". Each game must have 1000 gamer points distributed according to however the developer chooses I think. I think that's fair... 100 credits for XBL. It's not a lot that a "normal" person could just rent all the games and make it worthwhile to collect, but it's decent enough to purchase one or two of the many little extras for the game that usually cost 60-100 creds each. *shrug*

 

[Arwin]

It doesn't sound flashy enough and you don't earn an entitlement.

If accomplishing certain targets in a game earns you the right to download certain bonus items, then there is nothing wrong with calling these entitlements. As in "Achieving 10 consecutive Perfects in Tekken's Survival Mode entitles you to downloading one new accessory for each different fighter used." (just an example, mind you, easy to start rumors these days ).

 

[nintenho]

If accomplishing certain targets in a game earns you the right to download certain bonus items, then there is nothing wrong with calling these entitlements. As in "Achieving 10 consecutive Perfects in Tekken's Survival Mode entitles you to downloading one new accessory for each different fighter used." (just an example, mind you, easy to start rumors these days ).

I'm okay with that idea. Still don't like the name.

 

[TrungGap]

If accomplishing certain targets in a game earns you the right to download certain bonus items, then there is nothing wrong with calling these entitlements. As in "Achieving 10 consecutive Perfects in Tekken's Survival Mode entitles you to downloading one new accessory for each different fighter used." (just an example, mind you, easy to start rumors these days ).

Sony should call it accomplishment. You should send in the suggestion to Sony, maybe they'll give a PS3. Personally, I don't think they'll call it entitlement. That's just wrong, anyone with half a brain Cell will know something wrong by calling it entitlement.

MS is genius behind Achivement score. Remember when you're a kid hanging out at the local arcade center? You would talk about gamers and their reputations? Like what level they reached or that they can do tricks or stuff like that? Well, it was all through word of mouths...what LIVE did was validated that. No longer it's hearsay. This is important in a community. It also give the gamers a goal to reach. Achivement is much like scoring, but taken to next level. If you arguing that Achivement is useless, then the same could be argue about scoring.

 

[rabidrabbit]

Unfortunately not.... I was hoping for some sort of currency exchange, something like 10 gamer points to 1 "microsoft point". Each game must have 1000 gamer points distributed according to however the developer chooses I think. I think that's fair... 100 credits for XBL. It's not a lot that a "normal" person could just rent all the games and make it worthwhile to collect, but it's decent enough to purchase one or two of the many little extras for the game that usually cost 60-100 creds each. *shrug*

Something like that was promised by Microsoft prior the xbox360 launch, that you'd actually be able to "sell" your stuff (for points, or "microtransactions") like self designed game levels and characters in the Live marketplace.
It was supposed to be the feature to draw non-gaming girlfriends to the xbox360 and Live, your girlfriend would be able to design for example some cool clothing for a character in a skateboarding game and put them for sale.
Remember the "Velocity Girl"?
Quote from MS E3 2005 conference:
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/rbach/05-16-05E3.mspx

To do our part, we thought very differently about our approach when in designing the product. We knew we had to tap into a lot more markets, we knew we had to tit into a broader range of lifestyles.

So what we did is we created a number of scenarios, scenarios that informed our decisions and shaped our direction every step of the way.

Out of the gate we knew we had to create an amazing product that would blow the roof off gaming for our core audience; people like this guy: Striker. He's our hard core gamer, the lifeblood of the industry today, the guy that stands in line for 24 hours to get his hands on the next hot release first. He's a fast-twitch gamer who'll play for hours to master every level and every move before he mixes it up online with the best of the best.

Well, last generation we opened a whole new set of experiences and a universe for gamers like Striker. Xbox Live is going to expand the boundaries even further by making it easier for folks like Striker to find other competitive players with to battle online.

And hardcore gamers are going to love seeing the new features like Spectator Mode and Tournaments really coming to life in Xbox 360.

There's no doubt in my mind Xbox 360 is going to thrill the hard core gamers that live and breathe video games. But that's not going to get us to a billion. Not every one is driven by the need to crush their opponent on the field of battle. So we've also built in experiences for the casual gamers and the non-gamers of our world.

Let's talk about VelocityGirl. We all know someone like her. She might pick up a controller every once in a while over at a friend's house but really gaming is not a central part of her existence.
It's an important question that we've struggled with in this industry for the last 20 years; how do we get the VelocityGirls of the world reconnected to our industry and back into the games.

With Xbox 360 we have an answer. She's going to rejoin us because we're delivering a fresh set of services designed to nurture community and to broaden game play. To expand the market, we're going to deliver more casual game experiences on-demand through the Xbox Live Arcade. Whether retro, puzzle or just plain-old time killing games like solitaire, we're going to have an amazing assortment of games available.
So whether you want to stare down your brother on a Texas Hold 'em match or gang up with 3 buddies from college and play a little Gauntlet, Live Arcade is just going to be a press away.
We've got something else in mind. We call it the Xbox Live Marketplace. The Marketplace is going to introduce gamers to the entertainment through trailers and demos that are going to drive them to the store to pick up the latest titles. It's going to deepen the gamer engagement with games that they already play and already love with episodic content. They'll see new maps, new levels, new weapons, new cars and much, much more.
But maybe most exciting, the Marketplace is going to be a way to get VelocityGirl reengaged with our market and reengaged with games. Because on the Marketplace, she's going to be an active member of the community, the community of people that play games like Tony Hawk.
Now, she might never pick up a controller, never take a run in the halfpipe but she'll be able to design and sell stickers, shirts, boards, sound tracks and even design her own skate park for those hardcore gamers like Striker.
We're also going to provide VelocityGirl with great experiences around the games, experiences that extend the very idea of entertainment, like the ability to watch favorite bands perform on Xbox Live or premiere a new song.
We'll also transform the way that she communicates. Last generation, we led the way with voice chat over Xbox Live. This generation, we're going to break new ground again, this time with video chat that's going to let people see and hear each other at the same time, whether they're playing games, sharing music or watching photos.

Velocity Girl is going to love Xbox 360.

On topic; I don't care whether it's called "Entitlements" or whatever, if the PS3 interface is going to be in multiple languages it'll be called something else here anyway.
Enlittenments is a dyslexic word though, hard to read and type.

 

[Arwin]

Sony should call it accomplishment. You should send in the suggestion to Sony, maybe they'll give a PS3. Personally, I don't think they'll call it entitlement. That's just wrong, anyone with half a brain Cell will know something wrong by calling it entitlement.

They could call it accomplishment if they were really to do a direct clone of achievement, as that's pretty much a synonym. But an accomplishment doesn't give you any rights to downloads etc. What they are looking for is a mix of Xbox Live Achievements and Air Miles, basically. Bonus Bits? Accomplishment Credits? ACEs? (Accomplishment Credit Entitlements)

Yes, achievements basically take highscores and bonus points beyond the one game, which is a nice idea. Sony basically is looking to add unlockables to that and mix them with eCommerce, to really create something like a frequent flier programme - if you play more games, you get stuff for free (Arcade Games, extra content, etc.)

At least, that's what I'm making of all this.