Price vs Power

[Hardknock]

@silent_buddha I addressed those points in my post. 25-50% more powerful vs $50-$100 cheaper. And as for your generalization that all the "power" respondents dealt with inferior ports this gen that is not the case as my main system was the Xbox 360 (which I love) although I owned both systems. PS3 exclusives can't be beat (graphics wise).

 

[Silent_Buddha]

@silent_buddha I addressed those points in my post. 25-50% more powerful vs $50-$100 cheaper. And as for your generalization that all the "power" respondents dealt with inferior ports this gen that is not the case as my main system was the Xbox 360 (which I love) although I owned both systems. PS3 exclusives can't be beat (graphics wise).

I didn't say all of the people choosing power, I just say many of them. I know there's some Xbox 360 owners choosing that choice as well.

25-50% more powerful may not result in a noticeable difference on screen without comparing side by side and possibly even requiring it to be paused to notice a difference. Especially from my living room couch.

To put it into perspective. Many games that I play on my TV with my HTPC at 720p look just as good as playing the same game on my desktop computer at 2560x1600 or 2400x1500. Why? Because at my viewing distance in the living room 2-3 meters with my TV screen size (55") you cannot distinguish between 720p and 1080p. They look identical. I've done blind tests with lots of friends, family and aquaintances just to see if it was me, and it's not.

So, if one console plays something at 720p w/AA while another plays it at 1080p with or without AA. It won't matter to me.

Hence, if I do get one, and I'm limited in my buying decision between more expensive or less expensive, I'll go with the less expensive one. Unless there is a clear and noticeable difference in games from my living room couch.

But since that really doesn't apply to me anyway. I'm only getting whichever one gives me a better living room experience than my HTPC.

Regards,
SB

 

[Silenti]

The only reason I have mentioned price consistently, neither set of rumored specs is really getting my attention. The total die sizes are likely down about what ? 30% or so? If they are going to drop that far down they had better be able to start at significantly lower price points and face shorter generations. IF the 360 is less powerful, it may be close enough to not matter if it has a substantially lower cost of entry.

Strangely enough, I have been playing a couple of 360 games and mentally comparing them to the Killzone demo (which was only a 480p feed) and I didn't see anything there, or anywhere else in the PS4 reveal, that I would pay 400$ for the privilege to play. Deep Down looked more like an interactive movie and it was the closest to something that possessed a "wow" factor. I need to see something that is so clearly a cut above what is currently available ( GRAW, Assassins Creed did it last gen) that the price seems worth it. So far that just isn't present.

 

[Prophecy2k]

The only reason I have mentioned price consistently, neither set of rumored specs is really getting my attention. The total die sizes are likely down about what ? 30% or so? If they are going to drop that far down they had better be able to start at significantly lower price points and face shorter generations. IF the 360 is less powerful, it may be close enough to not matter if it has a substantially lower cost of entry.

Strangely enough, I have been playing a couple of 360 games and mentally comparing them to the Killzone demo (which was only a 480p feed) and I didn't see anything there, or anywhere else in the PS4 reveal, that I would pay 400$ for the privilege to play. Deep Down looked more like an interactive movie and it was the closest to something that possessed a "wow" factor. I need to see something that is so clearly a cut above what is currently available ( GRAW, Assassins Creed did it last gen) that the price seems worth it. So far that just isn't present.

Diminishing returns (to a large extent)... It isn't a few 5-15 minute trailers geared around showing off pretty graphics that will wow people like you and convince you to upgrade. It'll be the eventual demos of games taking advantage of the order of magnitude more compute performance, and seeming endless RAM reserves that these new boxes will have.

E.g. demos of games that show TOTAL destructability of a game world, WITH full fidelity graphics in an open world game. Demo's with things like fluid, soft body, solids and weather simulation that would have been impossible last gen. Demos that display enemy or even NPC AI that is mesmirising by how lifelike the behaviour will be. These are the things that will define next-gen for us... and for me I'm actually glad for that.

It actually pleases me that many folks like yourself aren't so impressed with the graphics side of next-gen, as the quicker devs and publishers discover that they cannot sell a game based on pretty pixels alone in this coming generation, then the focus of game development and marketing will shift to things that actually enhance games that have been sorely neglected up till now

 

[Brad Grenz]

The only reason I have mentioned price consistently, neither set of rumored specs is really getting my attention. The total die sizes are likely down about what ? 30% or so? If they are going to drop that far down they had better be able to start at significantly lower price points and face shorter generations. IF the 360 is less powerful, it may be close enough to not matter if it has a substantially lower cost of entry.

Strangely enough, I have been playing a couple of 360 games and mentally comparing them to the Killzone demo (which was only a 480p feed) and I didn't see anything there, or anywhere else in the PS4 reveal, that I would pay 400$ for the privilege to play. Deep Down looked more like an interactive movie and it was the closest to something that possessed a "wow" factor. I need to see something that is so clearly a cut above what is currently available ( GRAW, Assassins Creed did it last gen) that the price seems worth it. So far that just isn't present.

You should definitely go take a look at the high quality 1080p clips on YouTube before you write the PS4 stuff off.

 

[-tkf-]

Strangely enough, I have been playing a couple of 360 games and mentally comparing them to the Killzone demo (which was only a 480p feed) and I didn't see anything there, or anywhere else in the PS4 reveal, that I would pay 400$ for the privilege to play.

What is the point of comparing a compressed SD video to a realtime HD signal?

 

[Silenti]

Diminishing returns (to a large extent)... It isn't a few 5-15 minute trailers geared around showing off pretty graphics that will wow people like you and convince you to upgrade. It'll be the eventual demos of games taking advantage of the order of magnitude more compute performance, and seeming endless RAM reserves that these new boxes will have.

E.g. demos of games that show TOTAL destructability of a game world, WITH full fidelity graphics in an open world game. Demo's with things like fluid, soft body, solids and weather simulation that would have been impossible last gen. Demos that display enemy or even NPC AI that is mesmirising by how lifelike the behaviour will be. These are the things that will define next-gen for us... and for me I'm actually glad for that.

It actually pleases me that many folks like yourself aren't so impressed with the graphics side of next-gen, as the quicker devs and publishers discover that they cannot sell a game based on pretty pixels alone in this coming generation, then the focus of game development and marketing will shift to things that actually enhance games that have been sorely neglected up till now

Gimme draw distance, AI, sand box, smoother LOD, persistent features (like being able to track a target in snow), etc, etc, etc. When I see that, they will have my attention. That or there must be something rather awe inspiring from a graphical standpoint.

You should definitely go take a look at the high quality 1080p clips on YouTube before you write the PS4 stuff off.

I'm not writing it off. One 720p video I watched appeared to be just a 720p recording of what was still a 480p feed. I'll go try again.

What is the point of comparing a compressed SD video to a realtime HD signal?

It's all their was at the time. You can still get a feel for something as well. I am generally more impressed with pretty pixels than more pixels.

 

[BRiT]

For me, it's going to be a balancing act between price and power, but not in the way any of you have talked about yet. The deciding part will not be the hardware specs, but will be the software specifications such as online services and features because that is what interests my friends and family. I own my game platforms to have fun with with them.

Of course this could also mean that I'll still be gaming on the XB360 for a full year after the PS4/XB720 are released.

 

[Silenti]

Found a decent 720p feed of KZ and a 1080 for Deep Down. My previous comments basically stand. KZ - not enough better from a visual standpoint to justify 400+ as the price of entry and Deep Down strikes me as a Dragons Lair equivalent. I would be willing to bet that your freedom of action is minimal and preset in many ways. If it does come out like that, within 2 years of release and no circumscribed actions I would be wrong. I'm not eating bkillians hat if I'm wrong though.

If you cannot establish a wow factor, then you are not worth a premium price.

 

[upnorthsox]

Sounds like you wont be participating in next gen then.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Sounds like you wont be participating in next gen then.

They are going to stay at $400+?

 

[manux]

Price differene of 100-200$ is completily irrelevant if one considers the lifetime cost of console. Let's say the console lasts 6 years for early adopter. Let's assume 2 game purchases a year and maybe some online transactions. Tha't easily 100$/year to games/content. Let's also add on the "mandatory" service to play online which adds up to maybe 50$ a year. We are now at (100$+50$)x6+=900$ used to content. And this probably is on the lower side for early adopter who buys more content. I think it's reasonable to expect that 2 game purchases for 6th year too. Just look at this years lineup with gta V, last of us and whatnot coming out.

Adding insult to injury how many tablets, iphones, and pc's would one buy in 6 years timeframe? It's just very ignisignifant to save little money on initial console purchase and settle for less power for full cycle.

If the argument was something else than power vs. price I would definitely agree good services, user experience, unique differentiation in features like kinect or blu-ray(last gen) can make the user choose something else than power. It's the whole package after all, not just the power that makes console desirable.

 

[Prophecy2k]

For me, it's going to be a balancing act between price and power, but not in the way any of you have talked about yet. The deciding part will not be the hardware specs, but will be the software specifications such as online services and features because that is what interests my friends and family. I own my game platforms to have fun with with them.

Of course this could also mean that I'll still be gaming on the XB360 for a full year after the PS4/XB720 are released.

That's nice and great for ya BRiT, but I own a games console to have fun playing the best games that I cannot play on other platforms. My wife isn't really a gamer and the games she does like to play are simple iOS stuff and mario. She can't really bring herself to get into core games and that's fair play to her.

I'm rather glad its that way, and also that there isn't some trmendous software feature on my console that really appeals to her, because if there was i'd never get my console back.

Consoles for me are for games first and foremost. Services and apps are for tablets, phones and PCs. PS3 had a more than sufficient selection of services for my needs. I don't really need more than that, and so anything extra the PS4 can provide will only be a sundry to my main course, which is the games.

 

[dumbo11]

Strangely enough, I have been playing a couple of 360 games and mentally comparing them to the Killzone demo (which was only a 480p feed) and I didn't see anything there, or anywhere else in the PS4 reveal, that I would pay 400$ for the privilege to play. Deep Down looked more like an interactive movie and it was the closest to something that possessed a "wow" factor. I need to see something that is so clearly a cut above what is currently available ( GRAW, Assassins Creed did it last gen) that the price seems worth it. So far that just isn't present.

Something not mentioned, which some people have suggested, is that it may actually be cheaper to develop for the new platforms... compilers that are well-tested, a common architecture and no ludicrous RAM limit.

So maybe you'll see more "games you'd like to play" on the new consoles rather than see "games that will blow your mind".

Beyond that, the largest improvement may be in the game rather than the graphics:
- KZ5/crysis4, with "less tunnels".
- skyrim II with larger zones/more detailed quests.
- ME4 with less elevators, more open-world.

We might actually be seeing a generation where designers focus more on "designing a great level to play" than they do on "building a tunnel with a really cool cut-scene".

Hell, maybe BF4/COD 2015 won't just be 'follow me' shoot, shoot, cutscene. [ok, maybe a bit optimistic]

 

[Silenti]

Price differene of 100-200$ is completily irrelevant if one considers the lifetime cost of console. Let's say the console lasts 6 years for early adopter. Let's assume 2 game purchases a year and maybe some online transactions. Tha't easily 100$/year to games/content. Let's also add on the "mandatory" service to play online which adds up to maybe 50$ a year. We are now at (100$+50$)x6+=900$ used to content. And this probably is on the lower side for early adopter who buys more content. I think it's reasonable to expect that 2 game purchases for 6th year too. Just look at this years lineup with gta V, last of us and whatnot coming out.

Adding insult to injury how many tablets, iphones, and pc's would one buy in 6 years timeframe? It's just very ignisignifant to save little money on initial console purchase and settle for less power for full cycle.

If the argument was something else than power vs. price I would definitely agree good services, user experience, unique differentiation in features like kinect or blu-ray(last gen) can make the user choose something else than power. It's the whole package after all, not just the power that makes console desirable.

I was putting in a longer detailed reply, but suffice to say I don't pay for online, don't pay for a cell phone data plan, don't own a smartphone or a tablet (the wife has a Kindle) and don't upgrade my PC very often anymore. I've been through all of that and it was never really worth it. Not in $ and not in headaches from drivers/compatibility/etc. 100$ for 2 more games and the only difference I see is 30fps vs. 60fps, give me the 2 extra games (more since I don't often pay full price for them anymore, most are not worth it to me.)

Something not mentioned, which some people have suggested, is that it may actually be cheaper to develop for the new platforms... compilers that are well-tested, a common architecture and no ludicrous RAM limit.

So maybe you'll see more "games you'd like to play" on the new consoles rather than see "games that will blow your mind".

Beyond that, the largest improvement may be in the game rather than the graphics:
- KZ5/crysis4, with "less tunnels".
- skyrim II with larger zones/more detailed quests.
- ME4 with less elevators, more open-world.

We might actually be seeing a generation where designers focus more on "designing a great level to play" than they do on "building a tunnel with a really cool cut-scene".

Hell, maybe BF4/COD 2015 won't just be 'follow me' shoot, shoot, cutscene. [ok, maybe a bit optimistic]

I hope you are not too optimistic, that is very much what I would prefer. I think the worst purchase mistake I made this gen is probably between Modern Warfare 1 and Dead Space 2. MW 1 kinda has to win that since I paid full price for a game with a 4-5 hour campaign. Ah well, live and learn.

 

[fehu]

I'm not buying nothing until it reach ~250€
A pricer toy can be amazing, but stay useless if it doesn't enter in my house

 

[Billy Idol]

I'm not buying nothing until it reach ~250€
A pricer toy can be amazing, but stay useless if it doesn't enter in my house

Good luck buying an apple product.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

I just want to point out two things I feel are extremely important in this type of comparison, firstly last generation, the Xbox 360 launched a year earlier.

Second, as I recall both where supply constrained for a long period of time!

Unless there is something to really radically different from one of the consoles that make the other look uninteresting, I expect both the Xbox and ps4 to be supply constrained for the first couple of months. As such, any price difference will not really matter in the beginning, but at a later stage when prices are going to drop anyway. In the initial period hardcore early adopters will buy anyway

 

[owen]

I see a lot of people making these generalizations without taking into account all the other factors. The PS2 was released a year and a half before the competition (Xbox, gamecube). Was the successor to the most successful videogame machine of all time. Developers had no reason to take advantage of the additional power of those systems because the install base was so radically in the Ps2s favor. 120 million vs. 20 million or so. The ps4 and durango will be releasing at the same time. A whole different scenario where the most powerful system just might be the best selling as well. If that's the case I expect significantly better visuals on hardware with 50% better graphics capabilities.


And no ps2 games did not look close to games developed from the ground up on Xbox. The difference was night and day in a lot of cases. Soul caliber was 720p on the Xbox while standard def on the ps2. Compare ninja gaiden, doom, Riddick, dead or alive ultimate, splinter cell to anything on the ps2. It wasn't pretty. Most multiplatform games had better framerates and IQ on the Xbox platform without them even trying.

And don't forget that PS2 was Backwards compatible with both Software and Hardware. When that shit dropped the PS1 was out the window into the trash, nearly 100% uptake.

Now as far as the Power vs Cost goes I am not surprised with the result of the pole. I voted price because the more people buy your console the more games you get and the more support. Game consoles aren't luxury items, they thrive on mass sales. If the NextBox is cheaper than the PS4 the ps4 will lose from day 1. My bet is the PS4 won't be cheaper than $500.

Power only buys pretty pixels on your screen, it doesn't make people buy your hardware. People would be buying up vitas right now if it cared about pure power. You need to get the hardware into as many hands as possible. Just because the Wii innovative doesn't mean you can sell it for $500 dollars with killzone. That stuff only works with Sony fanbois.

 

[-tkf-]

They are going to stay at $400+?

Nope, but when the price drops aren't they technically "current gen"