Possible Gran Turismo 4 rival?

[Farid]

Personally, i'm not sure i'll buy any other racing title (apart from arcade racers like Burnout3) anytime soon after buying GT

On PS2 or PSP?

(j/k)

...similar to that Driving Emotion Type S game.

That's a Soap (shaped like cars) simulation, and it's pretty good one, except for the bubbles that are not rendered...

Squaresoft PS2 launch titles were very specials.

 

[London Geezer]

You guys should be more open. This game has *potential*. Who's to say it won't be as good as GT in regards to handling? Until someone has actually PLAYED the game (in this case that Forza game and the other one being from Konami), it deserves at least the respect that it certainly has potential and not to be dismissed in the shades of the almighty GT (which has lots of improvement left, if I may add).

Seeing the authentic representation of the cars already - I have my hopes high that an equal amount of effort went into the handling of these cars as well. Potentially, fewer cars could even be an advantage in regards to handlings: more time available to actually make the handling of the car as authentic as possible. F355 did a fabulous job on this in the end because of that. Polyphony however has a strict time budget with that many cars. That's a clear advantage if you ask me and therefore I say lets wait for some impressions at least.

Polyphony has no "strict" time budget. When one developer house can afford to say "it will come out when it's ready" you just know that they're taking their time to make things properly.
Still, is Ferrari355 a better game than GT3 because Sega could fine-tune the handling, having to deal with fewer cars? Even IF the Ferrari's handling was absolutely 110% perfect (impossible, since the controls are different anyway), GT3 with its 95% accurate handling would still be a better game. Simply because of the scale of it.

Just like FFX was a better RPG than most other RPGs this generation, and still is. With all its flaws, no RPG could approach Square's achievement.

Hey, the above is all my opinion, not trying to convince anyone..

 

[Farid]

Just like FFX was a better RPG than most other RPGs this generation, and still is. With all its flaws, no RPG could approach Square's achievement.

Wait to play Star Ocean 3... and maybe Suikoden 3/4... you should also try Disgea...


But that's OT.

 

[DeathKnight]

IGN Hands-On 1: http://xbox.ign.com/articles/512/512492p1.html
IGN Hands-On 2: http://xbox.ign.com/articles/514/514393p1.html

 

[Phil]

Polyphony has no "strict" time budget. When one developer house can afford to say "it will come out when it's ready" you just know that they're taking their time to make things properly.
Still, is Ferrari355 a better game than GT3 because Sega could fine-tune the handling, having to deal with fewer cars? Even IF the Ferrari's handling was absolutely 110% perfect (impossible, since the controls are different anyway), GT3 with its 95% accurate handling would still be a better game. Simply because of the scale of it.

You're missing the point. GT4 has 700 cars. How long do you think it takes to just capture the data of just *one* car? Now, how do you think a team such as polyphony will organize their time-table if they have *hundreds* of vehicles to test-drive, record noises, get handling and everything written down - let alone the fact that this data has to be modeled too? Do you honestly believe that Polyphony dedicates more time than a different developer only doing one car (or eight)? Think about it. Polyphony is good, no doubt - but just like any other dev, they have a time table and need to arrange themselves to even think about implementing that many cars. It has a draw back and a team specializing on just a few cars will undoubtedly have more time to get everything as close to reality as possible.

Coding skills is of course something that is important too, and that's an area in which Polyphony certainly doesn't fail to impress - but all I was arguing is that these titles HAVE POTENTIAL and could possibly be more accurate on the handling side given that they have less cars to consider.

 

[bbot]

Gamespy preview of Forza Motorsport:


http://xbox.gamespy.com/xbox/forza-motorsport/512434p1.html

 

[Lazy8s]

london-boy:

Even IF the Ferrari's handling was absolutely 110% perfect (impossible, since the controls are different anyway)

F355 Challenge deluxe actually does include a full gear shift and clutch, and can also print out a multi-page driving analysis of your performance.

GT3 with its 95% accurate handling would still be a better game. Simply because of the scale of it.

Rather, I'd say the flow of the race - taking curves and passing opponents, owing to course design and handling - and intensity of the competition would determine how good of a game it was.

 

[archie4oz]

In any case, I don't know what the big deal is... I mean we're talking sims here! PC's have been doing sims for ages, and there's nothing really new or fancy or really innovative that the console racers are bringing to the table. What GT *did* bring was it's scheer library of cars and include a large quantity of vehicles and vehicle categories that have traditionally been ignored or overlooked...

 

[CIN]

GT3 is maybe my most played racing game this gen after F355 challange(DC and arcade) but to call GT3 a simulator is stretching reality by quite a bit IMO

In GT you cant even make realistic overtaking manouvers haha. I like its handling system a lot but guys lets face it GT IS more ARCADE then SIMULATION.

One final thing. I would prefer if the car count was reduced to 100 or even less and instead make the car exhaust note accurate.

GT3 has a very bad engine note reproduction IMO. Engine sounds should be something like Outrun 2/F355/WRC3...that is what I call exahaust note.

I hope they get this right with GT4. As I said I would give everything to have the sound done right. Afterall it is a car game and engine noise should be an integral part of the game.

And why the hell do they include mazda demios, nissan micras, and other cars that no one in their right mind would race with? I say just focus on the real sports/race cars and get those as accurate as possible and leave the crap out please.

I also hope they include skid marks, individual tyre spin(when you have open differential)and back firing. Have you ever seen a race car with a straight pipe not backfiring?

They could also include some dashboards but I guess with the 700 cars for fanboys it would be impossible to do. :?

Oh and please do not compare F355 to GT. Not even close.

 

[phat]

Oh and please do not compare F355 to GT. Not even close.

True.

GT3 uses a physics-based model of car handling.
F355 appears to be largely dependent on a half-baked set of heuristics.

No comparison.

 

[CIN]

Have you ever raced a reasonably quick modified sports car on a circuit in real life? I have and F355 challenge does a much better job at resembling that exoerience than GT3.

GT has not changed much since GT1

 

[PC-Engine]

Hey CIN, are you still working on the 2ZZ transplant? 8)

 

[Dural]

Have you ever raced a reasonably quick modified sports car on a circuit in real life? I have and F355 challenge does a much better job at resembling that exoerience than GT3.

GT has not changed much since GT1

Heh, so true.

Anyway, there is some good info in this interview from xbox.com.

Xbox.com: There are a lot of racing games available for Xbox right now. What is it about Forza Motorsport that differentiates it from games like Project Gotham Racing® 2 or RalliSport Challenge 2?

Greenawalt: Forza Motorsport is a pure simulation engine wrapped in an accessible motorsport-based game world. With realistic assists, fantastic tactile control, and player feedback, gamers will be able to pick up and play. However, because of the depth of the physics, the player can continue to learn about the car and travel the path of mastery as a racing car driver. Every car is a new experience. Weight and friction transition realistically, allowing great racers to express themselves through their driving. Meanwhile, we’ve employed realistic traction and anti-spin assists that will allow inexperienced drivers to compete and be successful.

Our tire and suspension model is extremely realistic. We partnered with Toyo tires to get real-world data on production and race tires to model in the game. Our tire model exhibits pressure, wear, heat, and load sensitivity. Tire friction is also affected by the rubber groove and marbles on the road.

We worked with an engineer from Ferrari’s F1 program to completely simulate real-world suspensions. When configured to simulate a double “A†arm suspension, the track decreases as the suspension compresses and negative camber is introduced. In turn, the camber and weight affect the tire heat and thus pressure. Most consoles simply do not have the power to compute what we’re computing for the physics and still render a game.

Xbox.com: We’ve heard that some members of the development team are hardcore racing fans. How deep is their involvement with the sport, and how has that influenced the design of the game?

Greenawalt: We’ve got a very passionate and well-connected team. Some are professional racers, while others are hardcore racing fans. Monday morning water-cooler talk invariably revolves around the weekend’s televised F1, ALMS, MotoGP or SpeedGT race … or our latest speeding ticket …

One of the developers was fifth on the wait list for an Enzo. When he found out the Seattle Ferrari dealer was only going to receive three, he dropped off the list and ordered a Lamborghini. This same developer drives his 360 Modena at its limit at track days—and on his way to the office. The first time I met this developer, he had just climbed out of his car at Laguna Seca, where he placed seventh in a Star Mazda open-wheel race.

One of our artists is a professional Rally driver. Two team members have raced in open-wheel leagues. We have several accomplished motorcycle racers. We’ve also got some serious tuners and car collectors. A recent addition to the team has an AC Cobra replica making more than 600 hp in a 1500lb body. The rumble from that car will rattle your teeth loose. When this project began, our planner had an RX7 with a suspension so tight that you needed kidney dialysis after a ride in it. Lately, I’ve been working with the design lead for PGR 2 on my S4. On the outside it’s pretty stealthy, but I assure you that it’s got boost. It still can’t compete with his Viper ACR, but a project car can’t be built overnight!

Most of the team is addicted to going fast. In developing a simulator, you couldn’t ask to be surrounded by better subject matter experts. Whether the subject is car tuning, car upgrades, or track layouts, I always have the best resources sitting just down the hall from me.

Xbox.com: Were there any racing games that inspired your team? If so, what were they?

Greenawalt: Obviously, the GT series has been a huge influence on this team. Personally speaking, the original Gran Turismo was the only reason I bought my first console. Without that game, several of us probably wouldn’t have become involved in this industry. Polyphony has created a great series.

I’m sure many will see the influence of SEGA’s classic Ferrari 355 coin-op game in our E3 presentation. We have a 355 machine with a triple-screen set up in the lobby of our office. The art lead and I still love to play the old Sportcar GT game for the PC. It was a great blend of simulation and accessible fun. It also had really cool cars and real-world tracks.

A few team members participate in PC online racing sim leagues for Papyrus’ Grand Prix Legends and NASCAR Racing 2003. These games have a small, but fanatical following. Some of these communities have created third-party telemetry and replay analyzer programs as well as huge content mod packs. Recently, one of my buddies showed me an online league based on a version of F1 2004 that was mod-ed to have FIA GT and ALMS cars and tracks. That looked pretty fun … but extremely challenging. These hard-core communities are a better source of inspiration than any game could be.

Xbox.com: Describe the gameplay of Forza Motorsport. Is it pure simulation? Will gamers be able to “pick up and play†a single race as well as play an entire season in a career mode?

Greenawalt: Its career is a racing sandbox—with hundreds of hours of customization and racing gameplay. The game’s unlocking and progression structure is a blend between open-ended exploration and linear leveling.

In Forza Motorsport, you can collect and personalize cars from more than 60 of the world’s top manufacturers. These cars can then be driven in hundreds of races, which are broken down into a dozen different real-world race types. If hot-lapping is your thing, have at it. If you prefer point-to-point racing, we have that, too. Looking for standard circuit racing? We have lots of that on both real-world race tracks and stunning fictitious race tracks. Forza Motorsport also contains interesting race types plucked from throughout the world of motorsports, so it doesn’t limit you to a linear path. You can gain money and prestige whenever and wherever you want.

Xbox.com: Realistic artificial intelligence seems difficult to achieve in games. How is the development team ensuring the quality of the single-player experience?

Greenawalt: Everyone talks about A.I. in racing games. Rather than spitting out features, let me simply frame our approach and let you draw your own conclusions. You know when I was saying that we’ve assembled a team of all-stars? I wasn’t kidding. We actually have several high-level developers working on our A.I. alone. Our main A.I. developer is new to games, but incredibly experienced in A.I. He’s a PhD A.I. developer from Microsoft’s research division. In the past, he’s worked on robots and learning A.I. systems. He’s teaming with our research division in Cambridge, England, to approach A.I. from a completely different angle.

It’s really cool to see a group approaching this problem from a completely new angle. Rather than giving the A.I. different car physics, a predestined spline, and random seed to mix it up, these guys are creating thinking A.I. that drive Forza Motorsport’s remarkably complex physics engine. Even our A.I. difficulty levels are based on learning artificial intelligence. Lower-difficulty A.I. makes human-like mistakes, such as late braking and late apex-ing.

It’s sort of hypnotic to watch the A.I. learn. I’ll tune a new car and give it over to the developer to train the A.I. driver. The A.I. driver then takes over the car and starts putting together laps. The laps get better and better as the A.I. tests out the new car’s limits. After a couple of laps, the A.I. is putting together really fast times in the exact same car physics the player drives. What’s even more amazing is that the A.I. doesn’t have to relearn on other tracks. It just applies what it knows about the car’s abilities and starts churning out hot-laps on the new track.

If you don’t work in this industry, you might not understand how unprecedented this is. Every other racing game I’ve seen has used slightly different physics and predestined splines for the A.I. The artificial intelligence in Forza Motorsport is truly intelligent.

Xbox.com: How will physics and damage modeling affect gameplay?

Greenawalt: The on-track experience is a simulation. However, we have customizable levels of difficulty, in the form of damage, assists, and opponent skill, that allow you to alter your experience.

Forza Motorsport features performance-affecting damage. However, realistic damage can be extremely punishing. Therefore, we’ve integrated damage into the difficulty system. You can play with fully simulated damage, limited damage, or simply cosmetic damage.

Challenging yourself will increase the rewards for winning. With the difficulty settings at default, I expect most players to be able to pick up and play the game successfully. Meanwhile, they are encouraged and armed to grow their racing skills.

Xbox.com: To what extent will players be able to customize their vehicles?

Greenawalt: The upgrades fall into three buckets: appearance upgrades, performance upgrades, and performance tuning.

The cars, from more than 60 manufacturers, include some hot sport compact cars like the Dodge SRT4 and Nissan 350Z. We’ve licensed real-world body kits for the hot tuner cars. These are the appearance upgrades. Based on the number of kits we’ve created, we have several billion possible visual car permutations. Of course, we are a simulator, so each of these kits has weight and aero components to them as well. We also have an extremely powerful paint job editor. This editor allows you to place decals and vinyl primitives all over the car. You’re not limited to specific shapes and locations, so you can go ahead and freestyle.

As for tuning and performance upgrades, let’s just say, you’ve never been able to do the level of tuning available in Forza Motorsport—ignition timing, boost pressure, fuel ratio, not to mention the standard tire pressure, camber, caster, toe, gear ratios … In the upgrade category, Forza Motorsport includes everything you need to transform your stock performance car into an absolute track monster. And, of course, all of the parts are based directly on real-world upgrades you’d find on the track, from cat-bypass and cat-back exhaust to centrifugal superchargers, large surface area intercoolers, cold air intake, and triple-plate clutch.

Xbox.com: Anything you’d like to add in closing?

Greenawalt: This game is made by car freaks in the hopes of infecting the world. If you know a ton about cars and racing technology, you’ll appreciate the depth. If you’re a racer, you’ll be able to express yourself in the incredible physics engine. If you don’t know much about cars, but still get saucer eyes when you see a bright red sports car or a hot tuner car rolling down the strip, you’re gonna love this game.

 

[PC-Engine]

Speechless...

 

[-tkf-]

Have you ever raced a reasonably quick modified sports car on a circuit in real life? I have and F355 challenge does a much better job at resembling that exoerience than GT3.

GT has not changed much since GT1

Have you ever raced a Formula One car on Laguna Seca?

No?

Do you play your Racing games with G simulators like a very heavy helmet attached to strings that pull your head when you corners etc etc

It's all a matter of taste, while i like the F355 and i like GPL i find it's more a question of the "race feeling" a game portraits than it's how realistic it really is.

GT3 strengths is just that, it's more than just "simulation".. it balances the Sim factor with Fun perfectly. And it leaves you with several options on how much sim you want. But still, you get the race feeling when you play it, a good speed sensation and the car feels right. I love it

 

[Phil]

Have you ever raced a reasonably quick modified sports car on a circuit in real life? I have and F355 challenge does a much better job at resembling that exoerience than GT3.

Have you played GT4? How does it compare? GT4 is quite a step up from GT3, especially with the wheel (I never use a controller). Can you elaborate on what exactly is more authentic in F355 compared to GT3? Also are you comparing the arcade F355 or the DC version (with steering wheel or gamepad)?

 

[Sindre]

IGN has its preview of the latest GT4 bulid up now here:

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/515/515023p1.html

They say it feels different than Prologue and the feel of the car and road surface is perfect

 

[Phil]

well, to be fair, the said the same back when GT3 came out too. :? But I have actually played GT4 (prologue) and it's worlds above GT3 in regards to handling. So, yeah, definately have very high hopes! 8)

 

[CIN]

Hey CIN, are you still working on the 2ZZ transplant? 8)

Yes

Actually I got it ready in july last year and now I have some bolt on mods on it and a PFC. I am still waiting for my rims to put the GT300 on but with the new suspension and with the settings I have now it is a very sorted car and very easy to control at the limit

Here is a pic from last year

Sorry for the OT guys

 

[CIN]

Have you ever raced a reasonably quick modified sports car on a circuit in real life? I have and F355 challenge does a much better job at resembling that exoerience than GT3.

GT has not changed much since GT1

Have you ever raced a Formula One car on Laguna Seca?

No?

Do you play your Racing games with G simulators like a very heavy helmet attached to strings that pull your head when you corners etc etc

It's all a matter of taste, while i like the F355 and i like GPL i find it's more a question of the "race feeling" a game portraits than it's how realistic it really is.

GT3 strengths is just that, it's more than just "simulation".. it balances the Sim factor with Fun perfectly. And it leaves you with several options on how much sim you want. But still, you get the race feeling when you play it, a good speed sensation and the car feels right. I love it

No m8 I have not raced an F1(I wish though )

I also agree with all you wrote and GT3 definately feels right and I also wrote that I play GT3 a lot. I just like the F355 model better.

The problem I have with GT is that it could be sooo much better if they gave you an option to have full sim(not GPL sim but F355 sim would be OK)and take off ABS and make the braking distances right which I think is the major factor that differentaites GT from F355. In F355 you have very accurate and rather long braking distances so you can actually overtake under braking something that is very messy in GT3.

Oh and guys I am not saying that GT is not a good game. I do consider it the Best racer overall but for MY racinggamefix I prefer a run on F355 than on GT3