Same with MS if they go for HD-DVD only, it won't be able to play movies in BR format.PC-Engine said:
Doesn't matter really, as likely the movies can be played in some other format, like DVD. Movies relased in only HD-DVD or BR will be few.
PlayStation 3 to feature Blu-Ray disc - Official!
- Thread starter j^aws
- Start date
Doesn't matter really, as likely the movies can be played in some other format, like DVD. Movies relased in only HD-DVD or BR will be few.
rabidrabbit said:
Studios will be in no hurry to release in a next-gen format, except in cases like Columbia TriStar and maybe Warners. They want to milk the DVD golden goose as long as they can.
But the PS3 should have an installed base of over 10 million about 2 years after release. So there should be some economic incentive there.
HDTV installed base should be over 10 million this year. Most of those owners will no doubt buy a $300 game console which plays HDTV movies and plays games at HDTV resolutions, even if they're not big gamers.
I see it entirely possible that PS3 would not support HD-DVD.
That would not even be so "stupid" on Sony's part, as they obviously wan tto push the BR more.
For consumer, that will of course seem "stupid", but that also depends on how HD-DVD movies are available when PS3 launches.
PS3 is first and foremost a games console after all. Maybe dedicated, higher end BR recorders/players will support HD-DVD.
Though that doesn't seem likely either. Just like none of current Sony DVD players don't support DVD-Audio, only Super Audio CD (SACD, a format created by Sony)
That would not even be so "stupid" on Sony's part, as they obviously wan tto push the BR more.
For consumer, that will of course seem "stupid", but that also depends on how HD-DVD movies are available when PS3 launches.
PS3 is first and foremost a games console after all. Maybe dedicated, higher end BR recorders/players will support HD-DVD.
Though that doesn't seem likely either. Just like none of current Sony DVD players don't support DVD-Audio, only Super Audio CD (SACD, a format created by Sony)
PC-Engine said:
Which content creation/holding entities in the West have put their weight behind HD-DVD again?
Supporting HD-DVD in PS3? Why? Sony, autonomously, can and it appears will kill off HD-DVD. They have the front-end Content Creation (Sony Pictures/Columbia and MGM) and they have the back-end Consumer Electronics (Sony Electronics, PlayStation3) all devoted to Blu-Ray.
Forget about the rest of the massive Blu-Ray consortium of CE and PC giants and just think about this. Any entity looking to produce on HD-DVD, at this moment, realizes that they're fragmenting their userbase by doing so. They have to realize they're fighting a juggernaut in Sony Pictures/MGM and that the PlayStation demographic likely encompasses that which they're targetting with a next-generation format. Talk about walking into the valley of the shadow of death.
Outside of that, this isn't unexpected IMHO. Looks like PS3 is shaping up nicely.
The ones who will release HD-DVD content next year.
Sure and that was also the case with MD and SACD.
Studios are not afraid of fragmenting the market as can be seen in SACD vs DVD-A. They obviously prefer one format like DVD that's why if PS3 gets BRD, SONY will be forced to include HD-DVD compatibility to appease consumers. This is not PS2 DVD vs VHS. This is SACD vs DVD-A.
PC-Engine said:The ones who will release HD-DVD content next year.
Those in the west being...
Sure and that was also the case with MD and SACD.
What an awesome parallel.
The 175M PlayStation users in the world fit into it how?Studios are not afraid of fragmenting the market as can be seen in SACD vs DVD-A. They obviously prefer one format like DVD that's why if PS3 gets BRD, SONY will be forced to include HD-DVD compatibility to appease those studios. This is not PS2 DVD vs VHS. This is SACD vs DVD-A.
Whats SACD and DVD-A?
Ok, I'm being sarcastic, but the point stands that if I didn't hear about it here, I wouldn't know what they are. And I still don't know the pros and cons of them. I'm willing to bet that >95% of the general public have no clue what it is either. There won't be a person (figuratively) out there in a few years time who won't know what Blu-Ray, the VHS replacement, is. Fragmenting a niche is one thing, and it's not this one of them. Sony supporting HD-DVD is asinine, nothing more...
This is going to be a rout.
PC-Engine said:
Ahh, gotcha. You could have just said they have no support instead of the rhetoric.
PC-Engine said:Both MD and SACD had content and hardware backing from SONY and other major CE companies but I don't see either format taking off. I guess you still believe that PS2 was what caused DVDs to take off around the world?
The fact that you had to buy specific and dedicated hardware for SACD (WTF is it?) and MD doesn't alter the parallel just a bit?
Meet Content Provider Joe. Joe is deciding what to choose. He sees HD-DVD with NO content support and limited hardware support. He seems Blu-Ray with the biggest names in the PC and CE industry supporting it, he sees PlayStation2 and it's 75 Million unit userbase, he sees Sony Pictures/MGM support. Yes.. very hard choice.
PS2 certainly accelerated it (DVD take-off) much.
There wasn't a competing format, so DVD's taking off was just a matter of time.
Does a format have to become a dominating standard, before it can be said to have "taken off"?
SACD and MD are still alive, in my opinion they have taken off. SACD being even the more popular choice for high end audio.
There wasn't a competing format, so DVD's taking off was just a matter of time.
Does a format have to become a dominating standard, before it can be said to have "taken off"?
SACD and MD are still alive, in my opinion they have taken off. SACD being even the more popular choice for high end audio.
Vince said:
Actually I work in the entertainment/movie industry and have visited every major studio too even SPE in Culver City not to mention a handful of celebs. Of course this doesn't really mean anything, but it's something to think about
Vince said:PC-Engine said:Both MD and SACD had content and hardware backing from SONY and other major CE companies but I don't see either format taking off. I guess you still believe that PS2 was what caused DVDs to take off around the world?
The fact that you had to buy specific and dedicated hardware for SACD (WTF is it?) and MD doesn't alter the parallel just a bit?
Well don't you have to buy dedicated BRD hardware?
1. HD-DVD has announced support from the largest DVD distributor in Japan.
2. I guess you still believe studios jumped on the DVD bandwagon because of PS2. Do you think the studios believe this too?
3. BETA vs VHS
Panajev2001a
Veteran
Yes, but had somehow PS-early used Betamax (and had Betamax also allowed for adult content ), VHS would have co-existed or maybe even died because of it .
What I mean is two things:
1.) Blu-Ray has much more CE support than Betamax ever did.
2.) Blu-Ray with PlayStation 3 would have a very large user-base (say that PlayStation 3 sells even only 30-40 Million consoles in 4 years, that is much more Blu-Ray players than HD-DVD players sold by the HD-DVD backers).
Also we have seen Sony and the other Blu-Ray backers Blu-Ray backers pay close attention to any possible issue with the format: they went back to UDF (a choice I did not see them making, but they did anyways), they added hard-coating to the disc and took the caddy away, etc...
), VHS would have co-existed or maybe even died because of it .What I mean is two things:
1.) Blu-Ray has much more CE support than Betamax ever did.
2.) Blu-Ray with PlayStation 3 would have a very large user-base (say that PlayStation 3 sells even only 30-40 Million consoles in 4 years, that is much more Blu-Ray players than HD-DVD players sold by the HD-DVD backers).
Also we have seen Sony and the other Blu-Ray backers Blu-Ray backers pay close attention to any possible issue with the format: they went back to UDF (a choice I did not see them making, but they did anyways), they added hard-coating to the disc and took the caddy away, etc...
Panajev2001a
Veteran
PC-Engine said:
Backing from major CE players for MD ?
Yes, but only inside Japan... and infact in Japan MD is an estabilished and successful format.
I guess you still believe that PS2 was what caused DVDs to take off around the world?
Yeah laugh, laugh... it shows how much you are side-steppign the point.
Usual tacic of people when they do get a point that corners them and they do not want to admit it.
They say something quite irrelevant and add a "lol" on the side: yes buddy, you sure shrugged of the point.
If you think that having even 30-40 Million Blu-Ray devices, thanks to PlayStation 3 (if it does include Blu-Ray ROM play-back) by 2009-2010 is insignificant, well you are mistaken IMHO.
marconelly!
Veteran
That would, of course, happen if certain studios decide to support HDDVD exclusively, which we have no idea if it's going to happen.
Sonic, not to address you specifically, but just the general sentiment you expressed:
The effort going into both formats and the general number of investors and their investments for each suggests that's most definitely not the outcome (a niche product) they're pursuing. Not to say it couldn't end up that way, but it would certainly be against their will.
It'll be hard for any format not to seem "premium" in comparison to DVD when you can get $50 players NOW, but I don't think BRD or HD DVD backers plan to price these formats out of mass market territory. The first BRD recorder went on sale in Japan in early April, from Sony. It records only to single-layer 23-25 gig discs. Not 6 months later, Matsushita is almost ready to release a BRD recorder that's expected to cost the equivalent of 1000 USD less *and* is higher spec'd than the Sony BRD recorder because it can record to dual layer 50 gig BRDs. If that kind rate of price reduction holds then by the time these formats really start to get pushed in late 2005/early 2006, the prices should be becoming very manageable. And this is pricing for recorders not BRD-ROM players, which would be expected to cost less. When HD DVD players arrive on the seen they'll probably be competitive with pricing for BRD devices available at the time.
Sonic said:
The effort going into both formats and the general number of investors and their investments for each suggests that's most definitely not the outcome (a niche product) they're pursuing. Not to say it couldn't end up that way, but it would certainly be against their will.
It'll be hard for any format not to seem "premium" in comparison to DVD when you can get $50 players NOW, but I don't think BRD or HD DVD backers plan to price these formats out of mass market territory. The first BRD recorder went on sale in Japan in early April, from Sony. It records only to single-layer 23-25 gig discs. Not 6 months later, Matsushita is almost ready to release a BRD recorder that's expected to cost the equivalent of 1000 USD less *and* is higher spec'd than the Sony BRD recorder because it can record to dual layer 50 gig BRDs. If that kind rate of price reduction holds then by the time these formats really start to get pushed in late 2005/early 2006, the prices should be becoming very manageable. And this is pricing for recorders not BRD-ROM players, which would be expected to cost less. When HD DVD players arrive on the seen they'll probably be competitive with pricing for BRD devices available at the time.
Pepto-Bismol
Newcomer
Here's in interesting snippet from last month's PC World magazine ...
Blue-What?
DESPITE RECEIVING considerable press attention, blue-laser DVD is hardly poised to take over from today's DVD technology. Even the most optimistic analysts don't expect blue laser to have more than a minor market impact for at least five years. But the battle is on over whose format will win the hearts and minds of Hollywood—not to mention a boatload of future royalties.
Of numerous combatants, just two formats appear headed for the big showdown: the DVD Forum's HD-DVD, created by Toshiba and NEC, and Sony's Blu-ray, which is supported by practically everyone else. China is going its own way with EVD (Enhanced Versatile Disc), yet another standard, but the impact of EVD in other countries is uncertain.
In comparison to the red-light lasers used in current CD and DVD products, blue-light lasers possess a shorter wavelength—405 nanometers versus red laser's 650 nanometers. That translates into speedier pulses and smaller marks that are positioned closer together, yielding greater capacity and faster speeds. One beneficiary will be HDTV, which offers up to 1125 lines of resolution and up to 19.4-megabits-per-second transfer rates. Two hours of material transmitted at this speed requires just over 19GB of storage, far more than single- or dual-layer discs now offer.
The DVD Forum, NEC, and Toshiba claim that HD-DVD, which increases the capacity of DVD from 4.7GB to 15GB per layer, is easier to implement and could be brought to market more quickly and less expensively because it doesn't necessitate a complete retooling of existing assembly lines. In fact, NEC has already announced production of a dual red/blue laser read/write head (but no accompanying drive) that is backward-compatible.
Nevertheless, since single-layer HD-DVD capacity falls short of the minimum requirement for handling 17.5GB HDTV—as does the 15GB EVD standard--the DVD Forum is accommodating compression schemes besides today's tried-and-true MPEG-2: the MPEG-4-compliant H.264 and Microsoft's Windows Media 9. Both permit compression ratios higher than MPEG-2 at similar quality, but would require the DVD player manufacturers to pay additional royalties.
Sony and others argue that a clean break with older technology will result in greater capacity; Blu-ray offers from 23.3GB to 27GB per layer, easily exceeding HDTV requirements. Not surprisingly, Blu-ray is sticking with MPEG-2, although its creators haven't ruled out using other codecs.
Neither the HD-DVD nor the Blu-ray spec is graven in stone yet. To muddy the spec waters further, MPEG-4 playback is already appearing on some current DVD players such as NextWave's TW-3108 and Technosonic's MP-101. If adopted by other players and recorders, MPEG-4 may become a de facto specification.
The high-definition DVD fight is a minor story for now. The difference in quality between high-res DVD and current DVD is too small to give users a reason to upgrade until HD content becomes more widely available. Few people own TVs capable of showing off the higher resolution. And the new format's copy protection system will be far tougher than the weak one in current DVDs (see "Copyright Cops Crack Down on DVD").
That said, the first blue-laser product is already on sale—Sony's 23GB-per-layer Professional Disc for Data. At $2996 for an internal SCSI-3 drive and $3300 for an external USB 2.0/SCSI-3 version, it's a business backup option only, and the $45 discs it writes are not compatible with other types of drives. We were unable to obtain one for testing, but its availability suggests that blue-laser DVD will make its debut via data applications and the prosumer video market.
Source: PC World
Blue-What?
DESPITE RECEIVING considerable press attention, blue-laser DVD is hardly poised to take over from today's DVD technology. Even the most optimistic analysts don't expect blue laser to have more than a minor market impact for at least five years. But the battle is on over whose format will win the hearts and minds of Hollywood—not to mention a boatload of future royalties.
Of numerous combatants, just two formats appear headed for the big showdown: the DVD Forum's HD-DVD, created by Toshiba and NEC, and Sony's Blu-ray, which is supported by practically everyone else. China is going its own way with EVD (Enhanced Versatile Disc), yet another standard, but the impact of EVD in other countries is uncertain.
In comparison to the red-light lasers used in current CD and DVD products, blue-light lasers possess a shorter wavelength—405 nanometers versus red laser's 650 nanometers. That translates into speedier pulses and smaller marks that are positioned closer together, yielding greater capacity and faster speeds. One beneficiary will be HDTV, which offers up to 1125 lines of resolution and up to 19.4-megabits-per-second transfer rates. Two hours of material transmitted at this speed requires just over 19GB of storage, far more than single- or dual-layer discs now offer.
The DVD Forum, NEC, and Toshiba claim that HD-DVD, which increases the capacity of DVD from 4.7GB to 15GB per layer, is easier to implement and could be brought to market more quickly and less expensively because it doesn't necessitate a complete retooling of existing assembly lines. In fact, NEC has already announced production of a dual red/blue laser read/write head (but no accompanying drive) that is backward-compatible.
Nevertheless, since single-layer HD-DVD capacity falls short of the minimum requirement for handling 17.5GB HDTV—as does the 15GB EVD standard--the DVD Forum is accommodating compression schemes besides today's tried-and-true MPEG-2: the MPEG-4-compliant H.264 and Microsoft's Windows Media 9. Both permit compression ratios higher than MPEG-2 at similar quality, but would require the DVD player manufacturers to pay additional royalties.
Sony and others argue that a clean break with older technology will result in greater capacity; Blu-ray offers from 23.3GB to 27GB per layer, easily exceeding HDTV requirements. Not surprisingly, Blu-ray is sticking with MPEG-2, although its creators haven't ruled out using other codecs.
Neither the HD-DVD nor the Blu-ray spec is graven in stone yet. To muddy the spec waters further, MPEG-4 playback is already appearing on some current DVD players such as NextWave's TW-3108 and Technosonic's MP-101. If adopted by other players and recorders, MPEG-4 may become a de facto specification.
The high-definition DVD fight is a minor story for now. The difference in quality between high-res DVD and current DVD is too small to give users a reason to upgrade until HD content becomes more widely available. Few people own TVs capable of showing off the higher resolution. And the new format's copy protection system will be far tougher than the weak one in current DVDs (see "Copyright Cops Crack Down on DVD").
That said, the first blue-laser product is already on sale—Sony's 23GB-per-layer Professional Disc for Data. At $2996 for an internal SCSI-3 drive and $3300 for an external USB 2.0/SCSI-3 version, it's a business backup option only, and the $45 discs it writes are not compatible with other types of drives. We were unable to obtain one for testing, but its availability suggests that blue-laser DVD will make its debut via data applications and the prosumer video market.
Source: PC World
Ah, before citing SACD, MD and Beta as "failed" Sony formats (though they are all used a lot in areas each has strength), why don't you bring up Compact Disc which was the format co-developed by Philips and Sony? You know, it has nothing with games. Only later, PS1 got on the stream of CD popularity. But in the next round, PS2 had momentum for DVD.
As for Blu-ray in PS3, I suppose it won't support HD-DVD. Consider only about games (and cost supporting another format), a single larger storage format is good thing. (From technical viewpoint, HD-DVD is "cheap Blu-ray" BTW) Blu-ray movies are only extra giveaway and wink from SCE to the rest of the Sony Group, if you think PS2 had no influence on DVD takeoff. PS3 will support DVD and CD because of backward compatibility, but no HD-DVD. Even Nintendo can choose special format. How can't Sony with domination in console market ignore HD-DVD? In other words, it's the position of MS that has to appeal to wider audience as possible.
As for Blu-ray in PS3, I suppose it won't support HD-DVD. Consider only about games (and cost supporting another format), a single larger storage format is good thing. (From technical viewpoint, HD-DVD is "cheap Blu-ray" BTW) Blu-ray movies are only extra giveaway and wink from SCE to the rest of the Sony Group, if you think PS2 had no influence on DVD takeoff. PS3 will support DVD and CD because of backward compatibility, but no HD-DVD. Even Nintendo can choose special format. How can't Sony with domination in console market ignore HD-DVD? In other words, it's the position of MS that has to appeal to wider audience as possible.
The PC World article claims too few own HDTVs.
Well here's a projection of annual sales and installed base of HDTVs:
http://www.emarketer.com/Article.aspx?1002936
So over 10 million this year and high double-digit growth both in annual sales and installed base for the next few years.
At some point, most of the sales of TV screens larger than 30 inches will be HDTV monitors. With FCC mandates, an increasing number will not only be monitors but include HDTV tuners.
Well here's a projection of annual sales and installed base of HDTVs:
http://www.emarketer.com/Article.aspx?1002936
So over 10 million this year and high double-digit growth both in annual sales and installed base for the next few years.
At some point, most of the sales of TV screens larger than 30 inches will be HDTV monitors. With FCC mandates, an increasing number will not only be monitors but include HDTV tuners.
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