PhysX: PS3 can handle it; 360 features limited

[aldo]

Source 1uP: That makes sense to offer development solutions on all platforms, but what's interesting is Ageia's report that Xbox 360 can't handle all of the PhysX's features because of architecture limitations. PhysX offers technologies ranging from physical object interactions to fluid-based particle effects like water and smoke and reportedly only PS3 and PCs will be able to handle all the goods.

What will Xbox 360 miss out on? PhysX's fluid-based technology. How exactly that impacts Xbox 360's future is for all intents and purposes minimal, but it's strange to see a split between the two machines after such rabid debate over which one had the edge.

Seems minor, but first capability limitation on one of the consoles to be confirmed that I am aware of.

Anyone have an idea what feature the Xbox 360 is missing that might account for this?

-aldo

 

[msia2k75]

Do you have a link to the full article plz?

EDIT: Ok nevermind, I found it.

 

[aldo]

Here is the direct source at Extreme Tech

Although the PhysX libraries accelerate a host of technologies, from physical object interactions to fluid-based particle effects like water and smoke, only the PlayStation 3 and a PhysX PC will have the horsepower to process all of the technology's features, Ageia executives said. The Xbox 360 will not be able to process the fluid-based technology, because of the limitations of its architecture.

-aldo

 

[pc999]

Here

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1855078,00.asp

The Xbox 360 will not be able to process the fluid-based technology, because of the limitations of its architecture.

Why????
Edit:To late

On a single-core machine, that demonstration can run at less than 20 frames per second, monopolizing much of the PC, executives said. Running on a dual-core machine, the physics processing required less than half of one core, processing 6,000 boulders at 40 frames per second, they said.

Anyway it seems that even a Dualcore x86, can do a lot of things.

 

[pso]

Here

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1855078,00.asp



Why????



Anyway it seems that even a Dualcore x86, can do a lot of things.

Exactly... They mention "limitations of its(360) architecture" but don't mention why.

I would like to see Ageia's report on the "why" part concerning the Xbox 360 architecture limitations for fluid-based technology.

 

[SenatorMonkey]

Having attended this talk today, it was slightly different than noted above. The comparison was that on a single-core system, it ran at about 5fps and occupied the full processor. On a dual-core system with the PhysX chip, it ran at about 40fps, and took only 25% of one core.

Regarding having the fluid dynamics and cloth simulation be more suited to PS3, this was mainly due to cache issues according to the presenter. They're still looking at the X360 architecture to see exactly what they can get out of it, but right now they're concerned that they'd take up too much CPU to do these things through Novodex, since they'd like up likely one full core or more processing power. I believe that on PS3, they figure in 1 SPU to do the same, since it's massively iterated calculations on smaller datasets, which is perfectly suited to the SPU architecture.

Hope this helps.

 

[Titanio]

Err..couldn't it simply be a lack of horsepower relative to Cell/PhysX?

The Extremetech article pretty much says that. "only the PlayStation 3 and a PhysX PC will have the horsepower to process all of the technology's features, Ageia executives said."

I believe that on PS3, they figure in 1 SPU to do the same, since it's massively iterated calculations on smaller datasets, which is perfectly suited to the SPU architecture.

They're getting similar performance out of one SPU vs one PPE/X360 core? o_0

edit - not necessarily, apparently!

 

[BlueTsunami]

I really hope PhysX offers some explanation (more thorough) as to why the X360 cannot handle some of the things there stating. Its information like this, thats released without anything to support it (even though there may be substantial evidence). I haven't nosed around the article yet (i'm at work) but I hope they offered some technical reasons why..besides "its an architecture thing".

 

[pc999]

Err..couldn't it simply be a lack of horsepower relative to Cell/PhysX?

The Extremetech article pretty much says that. "only the PlayStation 3 and a PhysX PC will have the horsepower to process all of the technology's features, Ageia executives said."



They're getting similar performance out of one SPU vs one PPE/X360 core? o_0

Horsepowers differnt than limitations of its architecture, e.g. a 6200 and a 6800 while the 6200 cant do what a 6800 do, it is not a limitation of its architecture, while a X800 and a 6800 both have ~the same power but x800 do have limitations on its architecture that cant do every thing that 6800 can.

So it should not be that they are sayng.

 

[one]

PhysX offers technologies ranging from physical object interactions to fluid-based particle effects like water and smoke and reportedly only PS3 and PCs with PhysX card will be able to handle all the goods.

Corrected.

It basically matches what Ageia stated at CEDEC 2005 in this week in Japan.

http://www.4gamer.net/news.php?url=/news/history/2005.08/20050830235053detail.html (article in 4gamer.net (Japanese))

Scalabilities for Advanced Hardwares

Xbox 360
+ Just like dual-core PC, but uses 3 PPC cores with HT
+ Shared L2 cache
+ Probably shares the cores with other Xbox 360 libraries

PS3
+ PPC processor
+ Multiple "Synergistic Processing Elements" (SPE)
+ Greater simulation potential than PC or Xbox 360
+ All simulation classes are available

They basically said

PC with PhysX hardware = PS3 > Xbox 360 > dual-core PC > single-core PC

since more cores can be dedicated to physics calculation in PS3 while Xbox 360 CPU cores have to manage OS/libraries. Novodex Rocket 2.0.001 was used as a demo, and Pentium XE 3.2Ghz dual-core CPU could run it at 5-7fps while the same PC with a PhysX card could run it at 35-40fps. Apparently PhysX card will be available in December for $250-$300.

 

[pc999]

Having attended this talk today, it was slightly different than noted above. The comparison was that on a single-core system, it ran at about 5fps and occupied the full processor. On a dual-core system with the PhysX chip, it ran at about 40fps, and took only 25% of one core.

Regarding having the fluid dynamics and cloth simulation be more suited to PS3, this was mainly due to cache issues according to the presenter. They're still looking at the X360 architecture to see exactly what they can get out of it, but right now they're concerned that they'd take up too much CPU to do these things through Novodex, since they'd like up likely one full core or more processing power. I believe that on PS3, they figure in 1 SPU to do the same, since it's massively iterated calculations on smaller datasets, which is perfectly suited to the SPU architecture.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, in that case titanio do have reason, it is the article which is bad.

 

[mckmas8808]

Thanks guys for explain the whys. So can someone explain the "What this can add to PCs with the Physics card and PS3, that the other choices can't." What differences will this give games made only on the PS3 that can't be produce else where?

 

[ralexand]

Sounds like an architecture limitation, not a horsepower one because they can run it on a dual core intel chip at 40 fps.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Having attended this talk today, it was slightly different than noted above. The comparison was that on a single-core system, it ran at about 5fps and occupied the full processor. On a dual-core system with the PhysX chip, it ran at about 40fps, and took only 25% of one core.

Regarding having the fluid dynamics and cloth simulation be more suited to PS3, this was mainly due to cache issues according to the presenter. They're still looking at the X360 architecture to see exactly what they can get out of it, but right now they're concerned that they'd take up too much CPU to do these things through Novodex, since they'd like up likely one full core or more processing power. I believe that on PS3, they figure in 1 SPU to do the same, since it's massively iterated calculations on smaller datasets, which is perfectly suited to the SPU architecture.

Hope this helps.

Great explanation, Thanks!

 

[therealskywolf]

Isnt this kinda premature. Saying the Xbox 360 cant handle Fluid physics so soon?

 

[Jawed]

On a dual-core system with the PhysX chip, it ran at about 40fps, and took only 25% of one core.

Only 25% of one core? That's dreadful.

Jawed

 

[pc999]

since more cores can be dedicated to physics calculation in PS3 while Xbox 360 CPU cores have to manage OS/libraries. Novodex Rocket 2.0.001 was used as a demo, and Pentium XE 3.2Ghz dual-core CPU could run it at 5-7fps while the same PC with a PhysX card could run it at 35-40fps. Apparently PhysX card will be available in December for $250-$300.

Thanks
Do they have any numbers for PS3/XB?

 

[Draikin]

btw, is Havok's Hydracore already available to developers ?

 

[one]

Sounds like an architecture limitation, not a horsepower one because they can run it on a dual core intel chip at 40 fps.

You have to have PhysX PPU hardware to get 40 fps.

 

[aldo]

Isnt this kinda premature. Saying the Xbox 360 cant handle Fluid physics so soon?

The X360 can handle fluid physics, just not the code for Ageia's fluid physics. And Ageia is working to make their code work on the X360.

-aldo