Physics Processing Unit?

[Guden Oden]

AI? Pathfinding?

Besides, general housekeeping probably involves quite a lot of stuff with next-gen graphics anyway.

Also, sound seems to be done on the CPU in nextbox, so add that to the list as well.

 

[one]

http://sega.jp/release/nr050308_1.html (machine trans.)

SEGA announces they will use AGEIA NovodeX technology for next-gen consoles and PC games. By this licensing, the PhysX hardware is also usable in the game development at SEGA.

 

[j^aws]

Three major IC's in Xenon will be really expensive not to mention hot, though I would welcome such processors as much as I'd welcome two CELLS and a GPU in PS3!

The Physics unit will likely be a dense collection of vector cores not too dissimilar to CELL and modern GPUs. There's talk of GPUs being capable of being general purpose enough to do Physics as GPUs become more CPU like and CPUs become more GPU like and complementing each other,

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19397&highlight=vertex

 

[Qroach]

not if the tech is licensed

 

[j^aws]

not if the tech is licensed

Don't know what this means or who it was for?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

A specialist hardwired Physics solver couldn't be reproduced (hardware Newton for example), but a maths processor specialised in physics representation could be used and versatile enough to receive upgrades and use different techniques, same way GPUs process triangles.

 

[London Geezer]

A specialist hardwired Physics solver couldn't be reproduced (hardware Newton for example), but a maths processor specialised in physics representation could be used and versatile enough to receive upgrades and use different techniques, same way GPUs process triangles.

Yeah i think a whole little processor that is FAST at maths calculations, especially the ones usually needed for physics calculations, and only takes care of the physics engine would be nice. If it happens to be on-die in the CPU or the GPU, then that's cool by me. But i guess it's not very different from using a vector unit or a SPE or whatever else exclusively dedicated to physics.

 

[PC-Engine]

Next up will be a Global Illumination Unit and Artificial Intelligence Unit.

 

[Confidence-Man]

http://www.ageia.com/partners_oem.html

Workstation & Console manufacturers

Stay Tuned

Is there actually a chance they're going to have this thing in Xbox 2? Announced at GDC perhaps?

 

[Acert93]

That would be neat. It may also explain some of the core variances we have heard on the X2. I have seen press notes in the last 2 months saying as little as 2 and "4 or more".

The Physics chip really could be somethingthat helps set the consoles apart as "next gen". One thing to see a nice stand still pics, but when they move smoothly and with a sense of weight, speed, friction, and inertia that really make the "Wow" factor go up.

On the PS3 side, I doubt we would see this as the CELL SPEs are math monsters. But when you start breaking SPEs up... 1 for physics, 2-4 for vertex shading, 1 or 2 for AI (all theoretical of course) it is easy to see how the SPEs can be eaten up pretty quick.

After looking at the AGEIA site there are numerous references to "console" and "console support". And AGEIA is mentioned as a XNA partner. This would be pretty cool if X2 slipped this in.

 

[Acert93]

Fluid dynamics
Hair simulation
Clothing simulation

http://www.ageia.com/technology.html

Now we are talking Those 3 things there, even if only done on a modest scale, are exactly what I would expect next gen. I would pay an extra $100 if most AAA games had modest application of those features.

 

[j^aws]

http://www.ageia.com/partners_oem.html

Workstation & Console manufacturers

Stay Tuned

Is there actually a chance they're going to have this thing in Xbox 2? Announced at GDC perhaps?

It makes more sense to introduce this into a new console architecture and make it more widespread. It would also be more efficiently used in a closed console architecture than an open PC card add-in.

E.g. If it's on a sepeate card for a PC: PPU has x power, CPU has y power, GPU has z power...I now need another variable to optimise and match my gaming PC setup when either is changed...oh the nightmare! ...Though I'm all for as many tansistors as possible being used for gaming!

Yes, I'd like to see it in Xenon, Revolution and also PS3, but PS3 would be easier to just add another CELL!

 

[version]

Yes, I'd like to see it in Xenon, Revolution and also PS3, but PS3 would be easier to just add another CELL!

how much cells, for 4 teraflops PPU ?

 

[j^aws]

Yes, I'd like to see it in Xenon, Revolution and also PS3, but PS3 would be easier to just add another CELL!

how much cells, for 4 teraflops PPU ?

I prolly missed something but where is this 4 TFlops from?

 

[nelg]

With something as potentially influential as this you would have to assume that it would be necessary for it to be in the Dev kit. Unless of course they used something like nanoimprint fabrication to produce a short run for such a purpose.

 

[Qroach]

4 terflops? This PPU couldn't be pushing that much power, could it?

 

[j^aws]

This thread could quite easily turn into Fixed functionality VS General purpose, especially with CPU<=>GPU being merged, this extra PPU co-processor seems in-efficient if it only is dedicated to physics, unless it's really cheap and fast at it's purpose...

 

[Carl B]

Yes, I'd like to see it in Xenon, Revolution and also PS3, but PS3 would be easier to just add another CELL!

how much cells, for 4 teraflops PPU ?

16 8SPE Cell chips to match a 4 TFlop PPU.

Now then, where in the world did you read this thing would be 4 TFlops?

I think also we need to take notice that this dedicated physics processor on it's own takes about 25 watts to power, as indicated by the article. That's not an insignificant amount of power inside a console for such a specialized processor. And in it's PC incarnation they're talking about 128 MB's of GDDR3. So, that also indicates to me, how much RAM is thing going to be utilizing from the main memory reserve inside these consoles? Remember that every MB counts in there.

In the end, I think I/O considerations, recentness of the announcement, and memory/wattage factors will make this difficult to put in to the XBox this gen - though it will be cool if they are able to.

Sony is better off because their system more or less takes care of this with the SPE's - and Microsoft's cores might be able to do a good job without it also. We'll just wait and see I guess. We'll either know before E3 or at E3. 8)

 

[Shifty Geezer]

After looking at the AGEIA site there are numerous references to "console" and "console support". And AGEIA is mentioned as a XNA partner. This would be pretty cool if X2 slipped this in.

XNA is a PC development environment too, though. Adding support for different hardware accelerators into the XNA architecture doesn't mean all those features are to be present in the first XNA console.

The AGEIA website is attracting customers. "Add in Board Manufacturers" - you want to include our chip. "PC Manufacturers" - you want to include our chip. "Workstation and Console Manufacturers" - erm...wait around a while? Why not encourage the same support? Maybe they're in talks with licensing deals and don't know if they'll be able to offer the tech? However, no hardware manufacturers, and not MS or Sony or Nintendo or SEGA are listed as partners. If you knew the next XBox was going to incorporate this tech, woudn't you make it known that you've got the backing of MS? That's a key push-point.

I think this is a new tech, not thought about by any of the console manufacturers. I think the licensing costs and extra fabbing would be too much considering the already hefty CPU grunt available. The most likely system to incorporate it IMO is the Revolution, as Ninty have more time to include the tech than MS, haven't the same power-sillicon as it's competitors, and Sony will be wasting their time with it after shovelling so much mathematical oomph into their design.

 

[Qroach]

woudn't you make it known that you've got the backing of MS? That's a key push-point.

Not if you aren't allow to do so... if nvidia was courting SONY, why didn't they make this public earlier? Answer, they didn't have permission from SONY to make what they were doing public.

The most likely system to incorporate it IMO is the Revolution, as Ninty have more time to include the tech than MS, haven't the same power-sillicon as it's competitors, and Sony will be wasting their time with it after shovelling so much mathematical oomph into their design.

Wow I don't know how you spun it in that direction, but I'm fairly certain this has nothing to do with nintendo. Nintendo doesn't need this kinda of physics processing for thier own games, and that usually dictates how they design thier consoles.

What exactly makes you think about MS not having time? This company (ageis) has been courting PC developers for a while, and MS with direct X is deeply intrenched in PC development. They probably heard about this long before first silicon was made. I wouldn't be suprised if it ended up in directX...