PGR3, Gears of War, Condemnded, WOW. Why did they show PDZ?

[RancidLunchmeat]

Acert, you can say that those titles look better than whats available currently on PCs or don't look like the current Xbox could render, but I'm not the only one who came away with that impression. Just read the comments all across the web.

Most got the same impression that I did. With the exception of GR3 (and I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that it is in game), there were only two renders which looked impressive, GOW and Madden, a couple that looked better than Xbox could do but not better than a nice PC can provide, and the rest looked like things the current Xbox could certainly handle.

I've read very few "WOW" comments about this MTV reveal. And those WOW comments are usually restricted to the pre-rendered sequences and are followed up by "but alot of it looked like crap".

 

[Acert93]

Acert, you can say that those titles look better than whats available currently on PCs or don't look like the current Xbox could render, but I'm not the only one who came away with that impression. Just read the comments all across the web.

Why is it when people disagree you guys have to insult them and indicate they have not read anything??? From reading around my impression is that the comments are almost all about PD0--which the show highlighted. Have watched, and closely looked at, the videos online? Are you basing your judgement only by the show?

Most got the same impression that I did. With the exception of GR3 (and I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that it is in game), there were only two renders which looked impressive, GOW and Madden, a couple that looked better than Xbox could do but not better than a nice PC can provide, and the rest looked like things the current Xbox could certainly handle.

So humor me. You said that all but the 2 titles could not be done in the Xbox. You said it, not me. So explain how these games fail and could be done on the Xbox with the quality shown in the videos:

+ PGR 3

+ Condemned

+ Quake 4

+ NBA 2K6


Also, Gears of War may or may not be renders. It looks very much like the UE3 shots from last year that are supposed to be ingame... and parts do look like gameplay, especially the beginning firefight. It may, or may not, be renders--but with the standard AA and high rez we need to look closer. From the stuff Epic has shown it seems possible.

And Madden us a big unknown. While it may be artist concept EA has specifically said it will look even better; there is marked improvement from the draft commercial--better models, more animation variety, etc... I also am not noticing leaps and bounds better graphics than the NBA shot. To pick Madden out and ignore the cloth physics on the Lebron James video, or how smooth it looked in motion (I felt like I was watching a real person for once) seems odd. James looks much more realistic than any of the football players. Although not a full game with 10 players, it does give a strong indication of what they are aiming at--which is far beyond this generation.

Actually, if you cannot answer the question I want to hear from the others people you say are saying the same stuff. Where are these console games that look as good as those mentioned above??

I've read very few "WOW" comments about this MTV reveal. And those WOW comments are usually restricted to the pre-rendered sequences and are followed up by "but alot of it looked like crap".

A lot of assumptions. The GR3 looks "prerendered" but it appears to be gameplay. PGR3 could pass as prerendered. Condemned had Doom 3 like lighting and shadowing but texture detail way ahead of Doom 3--Doom 3 on a 6800GT, not the Xbox. That was not prerendered. Quake 4 looked very ingame.

Anyhow, I will await your answer on how PGR3, Condemned, Quake 4, and NBA 2K6 could be done in the Xbox as you claim.

 

[Dural]

Also, Gears of War may or may not be renders. It looks very much like the UE3 shots from last year that are supposed to be ingame... and parts do look like gameplay, especially the beginning firefight. It may, or may not, be renders--but with the standard AA and high rez we need to look closer. From the stuff Epic has shown it seems possible.

In IGNs preview of Gears of War they say the footage is in-game.

Just as quiet settled over the marines, gun fire erupted from the abandoned building ahead of them. The camera then swooped in over the shoulder of the main character, known as Marcus Phoenix, and an aiming reticule appeared on the screen. What looked like a pre-rendered cinema was actually in-engine. Phoenix began blasting away at his unidentified targets causing structural damage to everything in his line of sight. One enemy appeared on the second floor of a building behind some boarded up windows. When fired on, the wood was ripped from the side of the structure and crashed to the ground.

 

[PG2G]

I'm going to have to side with Acert on this one. Sure, there were a couple of bad looking games (PDZ, Tiger Woords) and DOA4 (which I still would prefer not to write off). However, if you go and look at games like Gears of War, PGR3, and GR3, there is no denying that those are above and beyond current generation console and PC games.

 

[London Geezer]

Flippin heck, that must be the fastest torrent ive seen in a long time, never really goes over 390KB/s, this one is maxing out my connection at ~450KB/s

 

[Inane_Dork]

Has anyone who claims most of the X360 games could be Xbox games actually played on the Xbox recently? PD0 looked like a mess, but even at that, I think it looked higher-tech than every Xbox game. And most of those games had so much detail that you'd only match them on Xbox with FMV.

 

[blakjedi]

even though Acert and Rancid are in disagreement.. i kinda agree with them both.

Most of the videos do look like buttocks. Only, PGR3, Gears of War, GR3 and NBA 2k6 (Can i say holysh*t! any louder while watching Lebron?) are impressive to the point of looking like next gen. And even then only 2k6 looks like it is so far beyond this gen it COULD ONLY BE NEXT GEN.

The other stuff is ok but looks doable on xbox... (even if its not) the impression which is what sales are based off of, is that its not that much better than whats out on x-box now. This is a testament to either how good the xbox currently is or how bad/lazy the developers for x360 are (not the hardware).

I think SC3 and Riddick look basically as good as condemned or quake4 based on the videos presented. Tony Hawk and Tiger woods suck visually... Madden still looks like just a render... cause no madden game is played from that perspective... i could go on but why?

 

[mckmas8808]

I think SC3 and Riddick look basically as good as condemned or quake4 based on the videos presented. Tony Hawk and Tiger woods suck visually... Madden still looks like just a render... cause no madden game is played from that perspective

Hey blakjedi in a way your statement is reasonable. But you have to respect the fact that the final dev kit only went out 2 to 3 months ago. I believe M$ upped the RAM from 256 to 512MB and add the third CPU core to the dev kit. So some devs probably are just starting to tap this change.
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GREEN CRACK PICTURES

 

[a688]

I think SC3 and Riddick look basically as good as condemned or quake4 based on the videos presented. Tony Hawk and Tiger woods suck visually... Madden still looks like just a render... cause no madden game is played from that perspective

Hey blakjedi in a way your statement is reasonable. But you have to respect the fact that the final dev kit only went out 2 to 3 months ago. I believe M$ upped the RAM from 256 to 512MB and add the third CPU core to the dev kit. So some devs probably are just starting to tap this change.

According to other people in here the final dev kit won't be out till summer. Also spelling Microsoft M$ instead of MS is really sad and stupid.

 

[blakjedi]

Hey blakjedi in a way your statement is reasonable. But you have to respect the fact that the final dev kit only went out 2 to 3 months ago. I believe M$ upped the RAM from 256 to 512MB and add the third CPU core to the dev kit. So some devs probably are just starting to tap this change.

Thanks "in a way" LOL.

but yeah I keep reading conflicting data on whether or not final devs went out which poses an interesting question...

In my statement, I mention 3 EA games (TH, TWPGA, and Madden). I think that they would be the first third party in the entire world to get a final dev kit from MS if a such a thing exists...

So why do TH and TWPGA look like the crack of a plumbers ass when THQ's/ 2k6 game looks like the cat's ass (thats a good thing right LB?)

Riddle me that mckmas?

 

[mckmas8808]

Good point again blak. I like the way you think. I guess maybe artist and programmers at Rare are either lazy or not that good. :?

Who knows. I guess we'll see more at E3.
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JUSTIN BIEBER FANS

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

First,

Acert: I didn't realize that posing the simple question of whether or not you had 'done the rounds' on some other boards to judge reactions would be considered a personal insult. I certainly didn't intend it in that manner, and only brought it up because the link above provided by Evil_Cloud has commentary immediately below it and that is an example of what I've seen as general reaction.

As to your questions, they aren't relevant. Perhaps blakjedi made the point better than I. Whether or not those things CAN be done on the Xbox isn't the issue. I'm not a designer nor a developer. All I can say is that with very few exception, the clips that were presented APPEARED to be of Xbox quality or perhaps "Good PC" quality.

I'm addressing the perception. If you want to take the position that public perception is irrelevant because it's from a bunch of idiots, and by the way, I'm an idiot as well.. That's fine. But MS is going to have to sell this system to idiots like me, and so far, the idiots aren't overwhelmingly impressed.

That's my point.

 

[mckmas8808]

Anyway calling the average MTV view an idiot is stupid in itself. Do you not realize that the videogame market and MTV market is basically the same? The biggest difference with us here is that we know more than the average MTV view about the history, making, and technology of games. Ask the average gamer and the average MTV viewer the same questions about game development and I bet you will see a lot a same cluelessness in them both.

Ontopic: Check out the first true screenshot of PGR3

PGR3

Real-Life

 

[PG2G]

Rancid, so you didn't find PGR3 impressive at all? To me it looks about as good as what we just got in Forza and GT4's intros.

If you can find any PC racing games that look even half as good as that, please show me as I'd love to put my A64 to work.

I agree on Condemned though. While it looks like a pretty cool game, it does look like something today's high end PC could do. But that's to be expected, isn't it also a PC game, and coming from a PC developer?

There's all this talk of public perception. MTV didn't really show enough for the public to perceive anything. I think you're mistaking public perception with a bunch of picky people that roam video game message boards. You know, the kind that would rather focus on the bad instead of looking at the promise of the good.

 

[PG2G]

Wow, where did that pic come from???

 

[mckmas8808]

It came from the GA forums. Nice huh? That next generation.

This is suppose to be the screenshot made avaiable.

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OM642 ENGINE

 

[Acert93]

As to your questions, they aren't relevant. Perhaps blakjedi made the point better than I. Whether or not those things CAN be done on the Xbox isn't the issue. I'm not a designer nor a developer. All I can say is that with very few exception, the clips that were presented APPEARED to be of Xbox quality or perhaps "Good PC" quality.

I'm addressing the perception.

Your tune has changed. You had stated:

The rest of the games [other than Madden and GR3] looked like they could be made on the Xbox

You singled out Madden and GR3 as games not plausible on the Xbox, but that everything else could be. That is a technical issue, not an issue of impression or perception--unless you are not familiar with what the Xbox can do and have expectations that computer graphics to achieve things not yet possible.

Clearly PGR3, Gears of War (which was not prerendered), GR3, Condemned, NBA 2K6, NFS, and Quake 4 are not technically possible on the Xbox in the form they were shown in the clips. That alone refutes your statement. Further, from reading around on BBs and comment threads on the pictures I have seen the opposite than you: Most people I have seen think most of the games I mentioned look way better than the stuff they see now days. But THAT is irrelevant to our discussion.

The discussion was whether all but 2 games could be done on the Xbox. Since the Xbox has nothing even close to the games I mentioned, it is a dead give away. Xbox games lack the geometry, detail, animation, textures, lighting, shadowing, and so forth of those titles. It is nice that you look at Xbox games through rose colored lenses, but I think people here will back what I am saying up.

Look at PGR2 and then look at PGR3.
Look at Halo and then look at GOW.
Look at GR2 and look at GR3.

Pretty much apples-to-apples an in every case the Xbox 360 games are hugely better graphically. If the Xbox 360 titles could be done on Xbox they would have been done already. But they have not because the Xbox does not have the RAM, processing power, or rendering features/power to make cloth move on Lebron, the normal mapping and lighting in GoW, the lighting/shadowing/animation/texturing in GR3, etc...

Take a closer look at the videos. If you need help people here at B3D will be more than happy to point out the difference of prebaked lighting and realtime lighting and so forth. The things going on in some of those videos is very next gen.

You singled out 2 titles as next gen and the rest as not. Now your tune has changed to perception from "people on the intenet". I think it is more than fair to challenge a "perception" if it is not founded in fact. And like I said, what I have seen is positive outside of PD0. We can argue about what fanbois on the net are saying, but B3D is not about that. I would rather stay on topic and discuss why these titles can/cannot be done on the Xbox.

I say they cannot. You can all but 2 could.

But MS is going to have to sell this system to idiots like me, and so far, the idiots aren't overwhelmingly impressed.

Well, like L-B mentioned, you already decided after seeing a TV show aimed at launching the machine with only one game showed you would not buy it.

Someone who would make their mind up before even seeing a decent handful of finished games running on it and playing the system is not someone MS is going to be able to evanglize to. People who rag on a system before they even get to play it or see some finished games really are not "average consumers". You are a gamer and seem to have already made your mind up without even trying a demo. Nothing they can do about that.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

Not true. I was discussing MY perception of the MTV release and augmenting my stance with that from others across the internet.

I singled out two games, one that I know for a fact isn't in game (Madden) and was therefore worthless, and one (GR3) that actually looked like I expected ALL the games to look.

I'm quite frankly getting tired of people trying to justify the poor MTV release by telling me to go download other videos, go find other screenshots, wait for E3, etc.

I'm discussing my perception based upon X360's extremely large, rather unprecedented and most certainly expensive "coming out party". If this is the best they can do, which is essentially show us very little: and then what little they show looks no better to the average (or above average) consumer than what the Xbox itself can render, they've got serious problems.

The perception after this event isn't positive, it's either indifferent or negative depending on the POV of the reviewer.

It shocks me that MS would come to the table with this quality of a release. Forget all the MTV stupidity, and just focus on the fact they showed very little of the system, very little of the games, and what they did show was unimpressive when taken as a whole.

That influences my confidence in MS because if they had something better, they certainly would have shown it. Those games would have to improve 100 fold in the next 6 months for me to make a launch purchase.

I was expecting every game to look like GR3. As it is, and like I said, Blakjedi expressed it better than I, but the majority of the clips displayed looked no better than the best Xbox games.

Realistically, I can't believe that you are forming your opinions based solely upon the MTV release clips. Rather, your opinion of the quality of these titles and their ability/inability to be played on current Gen-Hardware is most likely clouded, IMO, by sources other than that which is currently being discussed. You've seen video clips, screen shots, etc.. that are leading you to your currently conclusions.

 

[DemoCoder]

Videogame market is dominated by 18-35 demographic. 18-35 != MTV demographic.

 

[jvd]

aye i would say mtv targets 18 and younger .

Pimp my ride is one of mtvs higher rated shows . That is why those guys were there , the kids that watch it think its cool .