PGR 3 - Pictures and Framebuffer Discussion

The framerate i saw in gameplay in the gameplay footage is nice. And ive never manage to play pgr2 or forza because of the 30 fps. Motion blur changes a lot of things, and i must admit gives a realistic effect on the scene. I was a little bit skeptical hearing 30fps+blur can compete with 60fps, even if i'd rather a 60fps, but the brooklyn bridge with motion blur just killed me :D

And 2x AA in final version will mainly remove jaggies, even if its not as polished as 4x AA, thats still a nice difference with no AA.
 
one said:
I suspected it before for other games, but not PGR3. Can you really confirm it for PGR3?
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That depends on what you mean by confirm. I'm not playing the game myself, I'm getting it as second hand information, and not from the developers. I cannot link to any source as evidence.

So, if you take my word alone as truth, then yes I can confirm it.
 
Shifty Geezer said:
That's cool. Can you show me some pics like that? Just saying I haven't seen any. The 'most poly's' I could find was probably this IGN pic http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/741/741362/img_3113359.html or maybe http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/741/741362/img_2998787.html/http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/741/741362/img_3113365.html because of the crowds.
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No pics, but if you are willing to sit through a slow download, this video will show you some scenes with many times the amount of visible geomitry in those shots.

http://www.xboxyde.com/leech_1813_en.html

It's overexposed, but when he drives across the Brooklyn Bridge the second time you get a nice view of both the bridgework and a wide view of the city at the same time.
 
Powderkeg said:
OK, we can now call it a semi-confirmed 30FPS and 1024X600 native resolution at least.


http://www.bizarreonline.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8750&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=90

Look for the posts by "MoonFace." He's saying the same thing.
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Thanks for the link.
MoonFace said:
When you take a screengrab, the resolution of that screengrab is the same as what the GPU is generating. All 360 games so far have punted out screenshots of 1280x720 except Gotham, which punts out screengrabs of 1024x600. Oh, except when in the menus of course, at which point 1280x720 grabs are generated.
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It seems he has a devkit to run those games after all... Now it's interesting how Bizarre guys respond to this, or probably not.
 
If this 30% downsampled backbuffer claims is true, I seriously hope that it's using a 4XMSAA (Then they could say that it's more or less like a 2XFSAA at 720p).

Because if it indeed use only 2XMSAA on the 600p framebuffer, then... :???:
 
Shifty Geezer said:
You're reasoning is the same as mine, only I imagine there's less car polygons being rendered. The major point was I felt (perhaps wrongly. That's what we're discussing nicely here) that with the cars eating up 12 million poly's, there's not much going on in the scenery. Some people have suggested I'm crazy delusional and not really paying attention for suggesting the scenery isn't particularly high geometry, and maybe they're right, but all it'd take is a link to a PGR3 pic that's showing the detail.

eg.
http://www.bizarreonline.net/img/screenshots/pgr3/03.jpg
The building is quite high geom for scenery. Dunno how the corrugated railing thing is modelled, whether there's lots of triangles consumed there.

That's cool. Can you show me some pics like that? Just saying I haven't seen any. The 'most poly's' I could find was probably this IGN pic http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/741/741362/img_3113359.html or maybe http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/741/741362/img_2998787.html/http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/741/741362/img_3113365.html because of the crowds.

If you like me factor the cars comes to say 10-12 million, and if as you say PGR3 can handle maybe 40 million/frame, do you think the pics I've linked to show 25-30 million trianlge scenery models? If not, do you have example pics that look so detailed?

From what I'm seeing (which is what I've said) is that scenery doesn't look too high geom, and all it'd take from those that disagree wtih me is either an explanation why (like Jawed's explanation of using vertex capacity for things besides trianlge rendering) or a screenshot or two that clearly shows a highest-case situation. Like a grab of several cars with a very filled and detailed skyline maybe.
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I doubt you'll see a 2 million poly frame from PGR3, it would have to be a perfect capture say: all 8 cars parked close together on the Brooklyn bridge, maybe overlooking the NY skyline.........probably would add up to 1.5 million?(45 million @ 30fps)

But I can't stress this enough: adding 1 polygon to a frame is like adding 30( or 60 depending on your target frame rate.) if you draw *one* more object you MUST draw 29 more and that adds up really quick.

A 60 fps engine is really a headache! drawing 60 of every object, really limits your model budget! Believe me! :)
 
EricVonZipper said:
But I can't stress this enough: adding 1 polygon to a frame is like adding 30( or 60 depending on your target frame rate.) if you draw *one* more object you MUST draw 29 more and that adds up really quick.

A 60 fps engine is really a headache! drawing 60 of every object, really limits your model budget! Believe me! :)
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I'm not sure i follow your example but i'm sure it makes sense... somehow... :???:
 
Originally Posted by Hardknock
Those trees are all 3D not 2D folks. If you've paid attention to the game you'd know that when the cars are in motion, the backgrounds are blurred, that's why the trees and things look so blurry.
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Powderkeg said:
http://www.xboxfront.de/daten/screenshots/bilder_17303.jpg

The dark 3D trees on the left forgot to turn and face the same direction as the same colored dark 3D trees on the right.
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rosman said:
BC uses speedtree for the trees in PGR3
http://www.bizarreonline.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8828
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Powderkeg said:
OK, but I'm left unimpressed by it's implementation.
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You didn't even know the trees were 3D like I tried to tell you.
 
Here's the image provided by "Moonface" at the Bizzare online forums as proof:

http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/904/gotham0ik.jpg

One thing that bothers me is that the text for the kudos and such doesn't seem exactly rendered at native size to me. Almost like resized down to 1024x600 from 1280x720 and became further aliased because of it (since it's porportion got skewed in the down coversion).
 
Vysez said:
If this 30% downsampled backbuffer claims is true, I seriously hope that it's using a 4XMSAA (Then they could say that it's more or less like a 2XFSAA at 720p).

Because if it indeed use only 2XMSAA on the 600p framebuffer, then... :???:
Click to expand...

But it fits neatly in eDram with 2xMSAA at these resolutions...if they had to do 4xMSAA, they'd be tiling anyway, so they may aswell use 720p then.

Anyway, seems one's speculation/suggestion sparking out of the Inis Engine shots - and all those other games with 1024x576 shots - was disappointingly on the money. I think it's a major kick in the teeth to all MS's "HD Era" ramblings. 1024x600 is only 2/3 the resolution of 720p, 1024x576 would be a little less so even.

If all true, this probably in fact deserves its own thread, to trace through what is and isn't actually HD.
 
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Titanio said:
But it fits neatly in eDram with 2xMSAA at these resolutions...if they had to do 4xMSAA, they'd be tiling anyway, so they may aswell use 720p then.

Anyway, seems one's speculation/suggestion sparking out of the Inis Engine shots - and all those other games with 1024x576 shots - was disappointingly on the money. I think it's a major kick in the teeth to all the "HD Era" ramblings. 1024x600 is only 2/3 the resolution of 720p, 1024x576 would be a little less so even.
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Well I say lets just wait to see what Bizarre says. From what I understand, no launch games were created with 'tiling' in mind, so maybe they had to do what they had to do to get 2xMSAA in there.
 
Hardknock said:
Okay, but why did "MoonFace" just join Today. And we are just hearing this info from you today. Call me skeptical to say the least :???:
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Maybe because these guys just got their review copies yesterday?

That's the official forums for the game. The developers post in there all of the time. If the post is BS someone would have said something.
 
For what it's worth, one of the recent vids on Xboxyde from an Italian presentation apparently mentions that the game - as it was when that footage was taken - was not running at 720p, but scaled up to 720p..

So I guess you could be hopeful this guy was playing an old build - but if review copies are indeed out, that seems less likely - or you could take the opposite view and guess they didn't manage to make 720p for its release.

I'm as worried about the texture filtering in the pic that guy posted though, as i am about resolution..
 
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