Ops,"I" did it again. Why does Futuremark still ke

[demalion]

So... now that nVidia apparently "endorses" 3DMark03 once again, any takers on how long it'll be before [H] reintroduces it back into their reviews? How about the "Oops, sorry we were wrong. 3DMark03 is a great benchmark" editorial by Kyle?

as has been stated already... this move.. if [H] keeps their stated stance with regards to 3dmark03 == they were right... hard as it may be to believe

ergo... [H] MAY yet be vindicated for SOME of their statements made over the past several months...

How can they be vindicated on their stance against Futuremark and saying it is a useless benchmark, when they followed nVidia's party line of attacking them for being the opposite? Everything [H] parroted about the "flaws" of 3dmark 03 were because it was useful (sans cheating) as a DirectX benchmark...if you're part of an attack on what makes something useful, you're not vindicated when it becomes useless: you were simply part of a successful campaign in making it that way.

"Congratulations" to [H], since it seems that's what they wanted...too bad for the existence of "informed consumers", though, as it seems they're becoming an endangered species.

Anyways, I've said my piece to, for, and against Futuremark before...I'm waiting to see what occurs next.

 

[Fred da Roza]

Re: Ops,"I" did it again. Why does Futuremark stil

Well, nVidia tried to quit 3DMark with 0 community support.
This time, ATI would have nearly full community support ( certainly including mine ) - so that's an option.
And then there's what Digitalwanderer said, hehe


Uttar

Unless sites like THG and Anandtech stop using it, 1 small communities support won't mean much. You have got people like Unwinder painting ATI with the same brush they use on nVidia, while ignoring the reality of the situation ATI has to fight. And then there are sites like [H] who protect nVidia and push their PR while taking every opportunity to smear ATI. And now the company who makes the most recognized 3D benchmark turns a blind eye to nVidia antics. Unless your comments means ATI should use the same tactics nVidia uses, that doesn't help ATI's bottom line.

 

[WaltC]

I don't think there is any secret here, its just that the deal is rather fresh. I've probably just done a rather poor job of preannouncing things!

OK, fair enough...I was reacting more to my interpretation of Rev's remarks, which seemed to place the whole thing in an opaque light. I guess this is the unvarnished reality, then....

How do you fight a company that has no ethics and another that is willing to sell theirs? This is a serious dilemma for ATI. If Futuremark won’t enforce the validity of their benchmark, does ATI have any other choice but to cheat as well? If it destroys the usefulness of Futuremark's benchmark so be it. They made their bed.

What I find remarkable about this is what nVidia imagines it's going to get out of rejoining the FM program...? The company has spent the last 8-9 months publicly undermining FM and its software. Heh... When it gets out that nVidia's rejoined the program after all of that, most people willing to give FM the benefit of a doubt will no longer be inclined to do so. The only thing that might help a little bit is to see a "humble-pie" press release coming out of nVidia acknowledging past indiscretions with a pledge to fly right in the future, along with an FM statement of intent to make sure nVidia does that. Although such statements would initially be viewed with skepticism, they would certainly help matters, and would be easy enough to check out going forward. It's still baffling, however.

Hopefully, FM will not come out with a statement to the effect of: "nVidia has now paid us enough to say that we were completely wrong the first time." That will indeed be The End....

ergo... [H] MAY yet be vindicated for SOME of their statements made over the past several months.

Heh... I simply cannot imagine how frgmstr will feel when he discovers nVidia has rejoined the program---talking about going out on a limb and then having it sawed out from under you...! *chuckle* Wow!....I hope he learns a valuable lesson from this, and will see how nVidia is using him and then discarding him like so much toilet paper when it's finished....

For months now frgmstr has been forwarding the position that synthetic benchmarking with programs like 3dMk03 is "wrong"....and defending his interpretation of what nVidia is doing...and parroting the nVidia party line as he was lead to believe it. Hopefully, he will at last get the message that nVidia only pretends to "listen to him" to get him to listen to them and to get him to say whatever they don't want to say publicly themselves--so that they can then later reverse themselves with impunity and leave folks like him holding the bag.

Yes, while it may be true that ultimately it will turn out that 3dMk03 and FM are thoroughly discredited, it won't be for *any* of the reasons [H] has promulgated over the last few months, ironically. It will be because FM will have destroyed the credibility of its own software through incessant capitulation to monied interests. To me the irony is that FM may pass from the public scene with nVidia as a full partner, instead of going out with nVidia in opposition. All of this just boggles the mind.

Edit: Typos

 

[Sazar]

ergo... [H] MAY yet be vindicated for SOME of their statements made over the past several months.

Heh... I simply cannot imagine how frgmstr will feel when he discovers nVidia has rejoined the program---talking about going out on a limb and then having it sawed out from under you...! *chuckle* Wow!....I hope he learns a valuable lesson from this, and will see how nVidia is using him and then discarding him like so much toilet paper when it's finished....

For months now frgmstr has been forwarding the position that synthetic benchmarking with programs like 3dMk03 is "wrong"....and defending his interpretation of what nVidia is doing...and parroting the nVidia party line as he was lead to believe it was. Hopefully, he will at last get the message that nVidia only pretends to "listen to him" to get him to listen to them and to get him to say whatever they don't want to say publicly themselves--so that they can then later reverse themselves with impunity and leave folks like him holding the bag.

Yes, while it may be true that ultimately it will turn out that 3dMk03 and FM are thoroughly discredited, it won't be for *any* of the reasons [H] has promulgated over the last few months, ironically. It will be because FM will have destroyed the credibility of its own software through incessant capitulation to monied interests. To me the irony is that FM may pass from the public scene with nVidia as a full partner, instead of going out with nVidia in opposition. All of this just boggles the mind.

Edit: Typos

lol... yup... thats pretty much my thoughts...

though I have grown very wary of many of the reviews [H] puts out... Sean does review there.. and I do read his stuff... and brent also has done some good stuff...

on the whole... I am interested in seeing what the position will be once nvidia rejoins the beta group and what the so-called *high level nvidia brass* people will have told Kyle and if that is put through in an editorial or other on his website...

but as of right now... can't really take a potshot based solely on rumour and innuendo

bad form really

so I'll bide my time...

 

[digitalwanderer]

Re: Ops,"I" did it again. Why does Futuremark stil

How do you fight a company that has no ethics and another that is willing to sell theirs? This is a serious dilemma for ATI. If Futuremark won’t enforce the validity of their benchmark, does ATI have any other choice but to cheat as well? If it destroys the usefulness of Futuremark's benchmark so be it. They made their bed.

Well, nVidia tried to quit 3DMark with 0 community support.
This time, ATI would have nearly full community support ( certainly including mine ) - so that's an option.

I never thought of that. If ATi left it would be an entirely different situation, wouldn't it?

Can I have everyone's permission to tell ATi we'll all stand behind 'em if they leave?

And then there's what Digitalwanderer said, hehe

Heh-heh-heh-heh-heh! THAT'S what I'm talking about!

 

[digitalwanderer]

Re: Ops,"I" did it again. Why does Futuremark stil

Well, nVidia tried to quit 3DMark with 0 community support.
This time, ATI would have nearly full community support ( certainly including mine ) - so that's an option.
And then there's what Digitalwanderer said, hehe


Uttar

Unless sites like THG and Anandtech stop using it, 1 small communities support won't mean much. You have got people like Unwinder painting ATI with the same brush they use on nVidia, while ignoring the reality of the situation ATI has to fight. And then there are sites like [H] who protect nVidia and push their PR while taking every opportunity to smear ATI. And now the company who makes the most recognized 3D benchmark turns a blind eye to nVidia antics. Unless your comments means ATI should use the same tactics nVidia uses, that doesn't help ATI's bottom line.

I disagree with you on the "one small communities support" bit, I think there are a whole bunch of little websites out there that make up the true heart of the graphics community that really would back ATi to the hilt on this one as it's just SO bloody wrong.

It might be a "little" community, but it's voice is pretty unstoppable thanks to the internet and even the big guys are finding out they can't ignore it. (I wouldn't feel half as confident saying that if I hadn't been in a very pleasent e-mail correspondence with Derek Perez over the last few days. )

It might be a little voice, but it's right in what it's saying and you can't deny the truth forever.

 

[nyt]

3DMark03 == coverage. ATi won't leave FM because of this. NVidia were being arrogant when they did, and they suddenly notice they can't really afford not to be there in those difficult times. What will be done to regain credibility after all this mess remains to be seen, and I wouldn't be surprised if FM managed to get both ATI and NV to come to an agreement regarding what's acceptable and what's not. Let's hope it will be made public!

 

[WaltC]

...
but as of right now... can't really take a potshot based solely on rumour and innuendo

bad form really

so I'll bide my time...

I certainly agree with this...but as I interpret Dave's response to me above this is not a matter or rumor or innuendo...nVidia has rejoined the FM program.

 

[digitalwanderer]

...
but as of right now... can't really take a potshot based solely on rumour and innuendo

bad form really

so I'll bide my time...

I certainly agree with this...but as I interpret Dave's response to me above this is not a matter or rumor or innuendo...nVidia has rejoined the FM program.

Pagh! Methinks you're all being a bit silly-headed "professional" about this, I've been taking potshots at 'em for months based on less!

Seriously, there's enough ammo already out there to spend a relaxing afternoon taking potshots at 'em...this one though is gonna be a real humdinger come Monday!

 

[WaltC]

3DMark03 == coverage. ATi won't leave FM because of this. NVidia were being arrogant when they did, and they suddenly notice they can't really afford not to be there in those difficult times. What will be done to regain credibility after all this mess remains to be seen, and I wouldn't be surprised if FM managed to get both ATI and NV to come to an agreement regarding what's acceptable and what's not. Let's hope it will be made public!

I can't agree with you here...and frankly it's a mystery to me why IHVs think this way about the benchmark. I've personally bought, eh, ~a dozen or so 3d cards since the V1, and the number of those purchases influenced in any capacity at all by a FutureMark-Mad Onion-FutureMark benchmark is absolutely zero. I can tell you that those benchmarks have never influenced my purchases whatsoever. Other factors were far more influential in my decisions (FM benchmarks had no influence.)

What's of interest to me here in this case is the story of a software company publishing a benchmark and the attempts of an IHV to subvert it simply because they weren't happy with how it portrayed their current 3D hardware, which just so happens to be empirically inferior to the 3D hardware offered by their competitors. In the beginning FM made the wise choice of defending itself against these crass attempts at subversion and subornation. Now, FutureMark's position is anything but clear.

The thing is, 3dMk has no value as a promotional tool to IHVs if a sizable majority of the people who buy 3D cards no longer believe it tells them anything relevant. The future of FutureMark will be determined not by the IHVs which are its partners, but by the degree of utility and credibility the 3d-card buying public believes their software has. Therefore, if FM software is failing to sell 3D cards then it has no utility to IHVs. And the only way 3dMk will influence sales of 3d cards is if the people who buy 3d cards believe the benchmark has something meaningful to tell them about 3d hardware. If FM continues to lose its credibility with *the buying public* then, inevitably, it will lose IHV participation as well. This is exactly why the company should not shirk from aggressively defending its software against IHV attacks.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Do y'all remember when nVidia said this about 3dm2k3? Granted it was a whole six months ago and an arwful lot has changed since then, but here is some fun quotage from it to remember for tomorrow's "surprise" announcement from nVidia & FM:

"The reason that we're not all gung ho about it is that (3DMark'03) is not representative of (actual) games, nor is it a good benchmark," said Tony Tamasi, senior director of desktop product management at Nvidia. "That means Nvidia has to expend effort to make sure it runs well on our hardware. All that energy that we spend doesn't benefit the user. None. Zero. All that effort doesn't go to benefit any game, either. That's kind of depressing."

So what is Nvidia's choice for benchmarking? "Games," Tamasi said. "Use games."

Specifically, Tamasi said he objected that Futuremark apparently chose to emphasize single-textured pixels in the benchmark's four tests, while previous versions had pushed multitexturing. Tamasi also criticized FutureMark's use of older version pixel and vertex shaders, and the benchmark's heavy emphasis on running and rerunning vertex shader operations -- 36 times, by his count.

(Man, I am enjoying this WAY too much! )

 

[Althornin]

Do y'all remember when nVidia said this about 3dm2k3? Granted it was a whole six months ago and an arwful lot has changed since then, but here is some fun quotage from it to remember for tomorrow's "surprise" announcement from nVidia & FM:

"The reason that we're not all gung ho about it is that (3DMark'03) is not representative of (actual) games, nor is it a good benchmark," said Tony Tamasi, senior director of desktop product management at Nvidia. "That means Nvidia has to expend effort to make sure it runs well on our hardware. All that energy that we spend doesn't benefit the user. None. Zero. All that effort doesn't go to benefit any game, either. That's kind of depressing."

So what is Nvidia's choice for benchmarking? "Games," Tamasi said. "Use games."

Actually, this makes 100% sense for the nV3x architecture.
It performs very well on TODAYS GAMES. Of course they dont want it checked out on a test that is future looking. Cause the Shading engine blows.....

 

[digitalwanderer]

Do y'all remember when nVidia said this about 3dm2k3? Granted it was a whole six months ago and an arwful lot has changed since then, but here is some fun quotage from it to remember for tomorrow's "surprise" announcement from nVidia & FM:

"The reason that we're not all gung ho about it is that (3DMark'03) is not representative of (actual) games, nor is it a good benchmark," said Tony Tamasi, senior director of desktop product management at Nvidia. "That means Nvidia has to expend effort to make sure it runs well on our hardware. All that energy that we spend doesn't benefit the user. None. Zero. All that effort doesn't go to benefit any game, either. That's kind of depressing."

So what is Nvidia's choice for benchmarking? "Games," Tamasi said. "Use games."

Actually, this makes 100% sense for the nV3x architecture.
It performs very well on TODAYS GAMES. Of course they dont want it checked out on a test that is future looking. Cause the Shading engine blows.....

Ah, but that then begs the question of why they are now endorsing it!

OMFG, I just had a thought that I personally found hilarious for some reason!

Kyle is about to be caught up in his very own M|22!

(Sorry, you have to know FrgMstr sig for that one. )

 

[just me]

Ah, but that then begs the question of why they are now endorsing it!

Who says they are 'endorsing iit? *IF* NV did indeed rejoin the BETA program it is for 3DM04, not 3DM03.

Over at Futuremark 2 Admins have already said AJ is still there & did NOT quit.

What if this is an attempt to discredit B3D & Tero purposely inferred AJ quit just to see what 'rumours' would be spread? Why? Well B3D is a thorn is NV's side & if B3D is forced out of the BETA program due to 'violations' of the BETA agreement ....

I understand B3D's concerns as a member of the BETA program, but 3DM03 is a useless benchmark to the majority of ppl I know/conversate w/on the web: It is a game for the highest points & anything goes. It is not representational of todays or tomorrows games, is not a "Gamers Benchmark" at all, is not an accurate representation of system performance in a gaming environment & is being cheated to achieve 'high scores'.

*IF* AJ did indeed leave for 'ethical' reason > BRAVO AJ! 8) I doubt it will make any difference tho' as the proggie is already useless in the eyes of the majority. FM did it to themselves too.

.02,

 

[Dave Baumann]

Over at Futuremark 2 Admins have already said AJ is still there & did NOT quit.

Actually, Nick said he was currently still working in the office, not that he didn't quit. Tell me, if you resign do you not work out any notice period?

Anyway, just had another great and, as ever, wide ranging conversation with AJ. You'll hear more sooner or later.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Over at Futuremark 2 Admins have already said AJ is still there & did NOT quit.

Actually, Nick said he was currently still working in the office, not that he didn't quit. Tell me, if you resign do you not work out any notice period?

Anyway, just had another great and, as ever, wide ranging conversation with AJ. You'll hear more sooner or later.

Mr. Baummann I have the highest respect for ya as a source of information and knowledge, but I do declare there are times I wish I could just reach out and grab you by the shoulders and shriek "TELL ME!!! TELL ME!!!!!" into your face when you do stuff like that!

Can you tell us if we'll be hearing more tomorrow? I got this feeling in the pit of me belly that tomorrow the whole power paradigm in the graphics world is going to get turned on it's ear again a bit. (I'd prefer Tuesday actually, I'll have more time to follow it.... )

(I don't mean that shaking bit as a threat, it's meant as a funny. I've been having some troubles with people misunderstanding me so I thought I'd best clarify that I'm joking. )

 

[CorwinB]

I don't know why people are surprised that Nvidia is rejoining the Beta program after spending 8-9 months making negative comments about the validity of the software... Nvidia's PR (like most PRs) never was afraid to say something and then go the opposite way a few months later. Remember, back in TNT2 days, 32bits and image quality was everything. Then, when they faced the Voodoo5, all that mattered was Q3 scores in 640x480x16bits...

 

[just me]

Over at Futuremark 2 Admins have already said AJ is still there & did NOT quit.

Actually, Nick said he was currently still working in the office, not that he didn't quit. Tell me, if you resign do you not work out any notice period?

Anyway, just had another great and, as ever, wide ranging conversation with AJ. You'll hear more sooner or later.

Ahh, my bad. You are correct > they said he is still there, not that he didn't quit.

I, myself, walk when I've quit a job over issues (I imagine) as similar to this. If I have another job waiting & didn't leave over moral/ethical 'issues', then I 'give notice' & work thru that period. 8)

If AJ does leave: I certainly hope some others follow & they continue the 'tradition' AJ & Markus established for fair & reliable benchmarks.

.02,

 

[Sazar]

...
but as of right now... can't really take a potshot based solely on rumour and innuendo

bad form really

so I'll bide my time...

I certainly agree with this...but as I interpret Dave's response to me above this is not a matter or rumor or innuendo...nVidia has rejoined the FM program.

rumour and innuendo pertaining to the perceived position [H] will take on the matter m8... not about nvidia rejoining the beta program

that I will take as a given considering the source(s)

 

[Mark]

I notice some of you guys wondering what nVidia will do to regain their credability regarding the FM fiasco. I'll tell you right now what they'll do: Nothing. In their eyes, they've done no wrong. They even have an official statement from FM to back it up.

What about community credability? Why worry about it? In a few months, thanks to their massive PR machine and the hoards of n[V]idiots swarming around all over the place, most people will either have forgotten about the whole long list of nV BS, or will be simply labeled a "fanboi" everytime they bring it up and their thoughts simply discarded. Credability regained. Sales up. Problem solved.