Official: ATI in XBox Next

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Joe DeFuria said:
Yes, tell that to both ATI and nVidia....who are busy churning out their bread -n- butter, low margin, high volumeparts (5200 and 9200), on 0.15. Why the hell might they have planned to do it that way with 0.13 yields normalizing "fairly quickly" and all?

For one thing, the NRE (non-recurring fixed-costs) for 0.13u are somewhat higher than 0.15u. If the product in question, like the Radeon9000, is envisioned for a '1-year lifecycle' (i.e. 2M parts shipped, let's pretend!), the total cost schedule may work in 0.15u's favor.

If you went through the cost schedule to ship the first wafer, the mask + other-fixed costs for a 300mm 0.13u process are more than 2-3x the costs of 200mm 0.18u. (I don't have exact numbers, because foundries tend to guard this info carefully, even though they're more or less 'open secrets' to those in the industry.) The articles which talk about 'people enjoying lower production cost thanks to 300mm', they're really talking about vertical industry giants like Intel, IBM, Sony, etc. The products which ship millions upon millions of units, are the only ones with the potential to reach that mythical '30-50% cost-reduction.' (versus 200mm.)

Obviously, I have no idea what the production cost-schedules of ATI, NVidia, Sony, Toshiba, etc. might look like. That data is likely well guarded at each respective company. though seasoned analysts could make educated guesses, I'm no expert here.
 
anyone else having problems with the next page showing . For me it says that paul has responded last yet he isn't even on the last page i can acess .
 
As i said before, 6-10mths down the road, CELL/R5X or whatever console technology, will be overtaken by the latest PC hardware.

Keep dreaming if you think Sony or whatever has some uber secret tech that will keep them on top for years. :LOL: :LOL:
 
Chap,

How do you figure PC tech will overtake PS3 within a few months when even a 10GHz P4 is nowhere near even a quarter tera(fl)op Cell?

Looks like another hollow dream of yours that teh xb0rZ nExt will kill tEh e7!1 €e11...

Face it, dude. Nothing in the PC world is going to come near Cell in the next five years or so if it turns out to be ANYTHING like the patent we've been discussing. As far as rasterizer power goes - who can say? We totally lack specs on the new graphics chip for PS3. It's safe to say though that it's not going to be fillrate that holds the PS3 back even if PC chips can out-fill it in the near-term. At the resolutions PS3 will be working with, whatever fillrate it is given will most likely be as monstrously overkill as PS2s GS is right now.

Why do I think this? Simply because greater and greater emphasis is being put on pixel shader performance. Raw fillrate is already so high it copes with very high resolutions with good framerates, and in another two years they'll get better still. Emphasis on this however will lessen as it requires more and more b/w, and that is more difficult to acquire than more processing power for shaders.


*G*
 
From a news.com article about GDC 2002:

Okamoto said the method also appears to hold the most promise for dramatically boosting the performance of the next PlayStation. Game developers have said they would like the next console to have a thousand times the processing power of the PlayStation 2. There's no way to do that with hardware advances alone, he said.

"Moore's Law is too slow for us," Okamoto said, referring to the long-held truism that semiconductor power doubles roughly every 18 months. "We can't wait 20 years" to achieve a 1,000-fold increase in PlayStation performance, he said.

-----------------------------------------------------

"method" refers to distributed computing. So a Playstation 3 will have 1 tflop of computing power when connected to other appliances containing cell chips in them. Or maybe if you open a PS3, you' ll see a alot of chips in it.
 
Okayee, 5 years tops yippehayee!, as you wish if it makes you feel better. :)

As i said, i am not going to go gaga over some "phantom" hardware. I will sit back, wait and welcome the new hardware with open arms. Then on shall i judge it. PS2 kinda left a gapping feeling. .. :cry: I really do want a hardware that lasts techwise. YAY for PSCell if that happens!

Though i expect PS3 to fully support all available HDTV res in time to come. Nothing less.
 
Don't you get it? The PS2 fanbois here expect PS3 to have a single 1tflop chip in it. But it will more likely will contain many chips in it in order to achieve 1tflop or most likely it won't achieve 1tflop by itself but only when connected to other devices.
 
This is from a interview of Ken Kutaragi by Nikkei.


Kutaragi: Whether CELL would be built in to the game console or not is not an essential matter. Should the era of packaging continue, I guess PlayStation3 and PlayStation4 would be worth a topic to discuss, but what I would like to stress is that the concept of packaging, or box, would disappear in the broadband era.


============================

Funny thing is Paul likes to quote from this interview. The above quote supports the idea that PS3 will achieve 1tflop (or even more) when connected to a network.
 
bbot said:
Don't you get it? The PS2 fanbois here expect PS3 to have a single 1tflop chip in it.

I beg your pardon?

Who exactly are you referring to by that accusation?

*G*
 
bbot said:
This is from a interview of Ken Kutaragi by Nikkei.


Kutaragi: Whether CELL would be built in to the game console or not is not an essential matter. Should the era of packaging continue, I guess PlayStation3 and PlayStation4 would be worth a topic to discuss, but what I would like to stress is that the concept of packaging, or box, would disappear in the broadband era.


============================

Funny thing is Paul likes to quote from this interview. The above quote supports the idea that PS3 will achieve 1tflop (or even more) when connected to a network.

Actually, THAT particular line would seem to state that talking about the devices simply as "consoles" will not really apply for long (at least not in the case of the PS3), as networked communication will be changing them and their demesne for a long time to come. We've seen this generation rushing to include networked gaming--local and broadband, we see it coming from other set-top boxes and some devices we've been used to as one way for years, and in the coming generations it's only going to become more predominant.

Where does that particular statement go against the performance quotes they've been giving in many other sources? It seems more to be saying that judging a box in an of itself for all things is becoming less relevant, since it will be carried along also by the network that supports it.
 
Just as an FYI. I visited PowerVR a couple of weeks ago, and am just writing up the interview which you'll see soon, however here is a Q/A that relates to part of this discussion as to IP licensing:

Initially MBX was targeted as low for 130nm processing, but now we're getting into 90nm territory.

Because we provide Soft IP as synthesisable RTL, it is inherently retarget-able to different silicon processes. We are focussing on more aggressive power management because issues of current leakage get more important as you go down the process sizes.
 
They ALL matter. You just can't say that architecture A with X transistors, is better or worse than architecture B with Y transistors.

Understand?

Architecture B can require Y transistors in order to be competitive with Architecture A with X transistors.

Please, graspeth this concept.


Joe I understandeth thee. That's why I said 'even if they are different' that is even if they require different amounts of transistors and different speeds to be competitive, if the difference in amount of processing elements and speed diminishes or increases, it is a logical inference that the difference might tend to diminish or grow...

As I said if you compare a processor from today, even with different arch., to one of say 5yrs ago, Id' say (assuming they're designed for the same field/function/purpose) the one that's most recent will tend to be above in perf, and the one from the past will tend to be below perf wise.

One reason is because the modern one has a larger trans. budget, and is faster. The less time you give between processors, that is the more the gap in proc. elements and speed diminishes, the more the perf line will blur, and the larger the gap gets, the further perf will differ.

Examples: Take 3 proc.s:
1. proc. from 1yr ago..

2.proc... from 20yrs ago...

3.modern processor...

Assuming they're designed for the same purpose, the modern one will TEND to be closer in perf to the one from 1yr ago, the smallest gap, even if they differ in arch. Again I said 'TEND'...

Are they going to pony up and fight on the same scale, or are they going to play it safe and hope Sony stumbles? Questions, questions...

Well based on their previous actions, I'd say it's very likely they'll fight back... now there are two ways to fight back

1.) Waste a ton of transistors to beef up raw specs, if they try to do a ' we're 2-3X better', although anyone with any real notion of what's going on will realize they've sacrificed a lot to achieve, theoretical mumbo jumbo... and in the real world...

2.) Delay and launch superior $$$$ h/w a year later.

As i said before, 6-10mths down the road, CELL/R5X or whatever console technology, will be overtaken by the latest PC hardware.

It's possible, but the question is "by HOW MUCH?" a nigh 45nm arch, will require process equal or below 30nm to be significantly surpassed.

Again and then we've got to wait for software dev., if exponential leap is achieved, the gap between the low end and the high end will be RIDICULOUSLY large, thus it'll be yrs until this new "SUPAH" gpus are widespread enough to be viable for full support.

What about the dev. costs? Modeling of char.s, objects, dozens of times more complex, new advanced physics for said objects, etc. these all require MORE people, and people cost $$$. Most pc dev.s don't have the sale numbers necessary to sustain these significant cost increases...

And what about the bottlenecks, the fact that the cpu is likely to remain focused on gen. processing tasks, and not gphx, the ever growing size(in terms of mem. usage.) of windows, etc?

Face it, dude. Nothing in the PC world is going to come near Cell in the next five years or so if it turns out to be ANYTHING like the patent we've been discussing.


Well, I wouldn't necessarily say that... but if it's significantly surpassed very late in the game(a few yrs.), the time for software that will support said hardware to the max... won't likely arrive until the next console cycle... That is ALL that needs to be done, it can be equalled(somehow) a yr later, surpassed in 2yrs, and significantly(2-3X) outdone in 3yrs, but software will likely arrive TOO late for said 2-3Xhardware... by then we'll be starting the next console cycle...

Now We don't know what dev. might occur in the future yrs, these dev. can actually change everything, any model change, any new radical tech, say cheap diamond, dev. in the nano world, or rad. advances in lithography, etc... can alter everything, but there is a difference between ideas/discoveries and realworld applications, and that's that the later often arrives yrs later...

PS This is all assuming STI didn't seriously F@ck off when designing their arch...

As for my 2-3xhardware comment, it's that it does not matter if the gphx are equal or slightly above, in order to justify the price difference($300-500 gpu from a few yr laters), it has to show gphx that SIGNIFICANTLY outdo the ps3 ones, now 2-3x perf improvement might not even be enough to do this...
 
zidane1strife said:
Are they going to pony up and fight on the same scale, or are they going to play it safe and hope Sony stumbles? Questions, questions...

Well based on their previous actions, I'd say it's very likely they'll fight back... now there are two ways to fight back

1.) Waste a ton of transistors to beef up raw specs, if they try to do a ' we're 2-3X better', although anyone with any real notion of what's going on will realize they've sacrificed a lot to achieve, theoretical mumbo jumbo... and in the real world...

2.) Delay and launch superior $$$$ h/w a year later.

Well, they already did #2 with the first Xbox (more like 20 months, too), but it's barely kept them above Nintendo, let alone biting majorly into Sony, so one would thing they'll be wanting to change their gameplan this time.

And #1 is no simple answer. #1 can basically be defined as "R&D". Are they going to put the time and effort into really creating a unique and dedicated piece of kit that will push into new directions and new efforts rather than sliding along the same rough territory as the PC. How much are they and their partners willing to innovate? Or are they going to pull the same maneuver as with the Xbox, where we all can see the ease, but note the inherent flaws?

I'm not at all going to make claims that CELL will leap ahead of where PC architecture can go for a half-decade... there are WAYYYYYY too many variables upon which that rests that we have no idea about. But with the lengths that S/I/T are going to this generation, I don't think Microsoft can play the same game they did last time and hope to be on the same level. (I'm skeptical of how far they'll go, especially considering how lossy the Xbox is right now as far as R&D is concerned, but they certainly could surprise us. But all comments about skepticism from folks and how much Microsoft actually "innovates" aside, I feel we're going to see a lot more pressure from them on publishers and development houses, since the games are the true core of a game system--and it's a tactic they've rather honed to fine perfection.)
 
Listen. Cell is scalable . Cell can be in 1tflop. Cell will be in ps3.Most have jump to the conclusion that ps3= 1tflop. Now they can be right or they can be wrong. Only problem is there is no proof which way it goes. The cell chip in the ps3 may only be 500gflops . It could be 1.5tflops. Sony has never stated mhz or apu's in the chip that will be used in the ps3.

On the xbox 2 side all we know is that ati will be in it. Which is even less than what we know of the ps3

On the nintendo side we know that ati will be in it. Same as the xbox2.


So we really know nothing about the next gen.


What i do know is taht xbox 2 performance will be close to ps3 performance . The pcs of a year later will be greater performance than the xbox 2. So using that logic the ps3 will be less than a years later pc hardware .
 
Whether PS3 will (eventually) be overtaken (specs wise) by latest PCs is without any doubt but when will that happen is anybody's guess? More imp is whether that will be reflected in games....we all know PC games are optimized. Even more imp is whether it bothers us that PS3 is overtaken by PC...?
 
From a news.com article about GDC 2002:

Okamoto said the method also appears to hold the most promise for dramatically boosting the performance of the next PlayStation. Game developers have said they would like the next console to have a thousand times the processing power of the PlayStation 2. There's no way to do that with hardware advances alone, he said.

"Moore's Law is too slow for us," Okamoto said, referring to the long-held truism that semiconductor power doubles roughly every 18 months. "We can't wait 20 years" to achieve a 1,000-fold increase in PlayStation performance, he said.

-----------------------------------------------------

"method" refers to distributed computing. So a Playstation 3 will have 1 tflop of computing power when connected to other appliances containing cell chips in them. Or maybe if you open a PS3, you' ll see a alot of chips in it.


1000X IN TOTAL POWER.

1000 X 6.2GFLOPS(EE) = 6 TERAFLOPS

My god, you are just so clueless it ISNT even funny. I prove this BS wrong in another post and you IGNORE it, and continue to spout this crap.

Give it up

Funny thing is Paul likes to quote from this interview. The above quote supports the idea that PS3 will achieve 1tflop (or even more) when connected to a network.

Funny thing Cell A MICROPROCESSOR is being developed to offer TERAFLOPS of computing performance right? As stated by SEVERAL people and a patent within the Cell development circle.

But no, let's ignore the evidence and continue to spout this bullshit in which you have nothing but an equivilent to a used condom as evidence. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Get a clue, everyone can see you are grasping at straws here.
 
Paul stop with the cursing . Your getting very bad with it .

To everyone else . I've also noticed more and more of you cursing . I will push to get people band for cursing so much .
 
People can get banned for cursing but not banned for trolling and ruining topics? Hmmm.

And no I'm not getting "very bad with it" I barely curse EVER, and it's not at someone IE: Your a ****head
 
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