NVIDIA GF100 & Friends speculation

When talking about 2.560 x 1.600 - yes. But quite obviously from the Whitepaper and your quote, they're not using that resolution. GTX285 is up 60 percent reducing AA-samples from eight to four. In 2.560 x1.600 in your link it is up to 250% the original value (14 -> 35). 60% increase sound more like the 38 -> 58 Fps increase (~53%) in 1.920 x 1.200.

Calculating from those values, Fermi would be at 88 Fps (HD 5870 from your link: 46 Fps) with 8x MSAA and 97 Fps for 4x AA (HD 5870: 50 Fps, HD 5970: 77 Fps, GTX 295: 88 Fps - all from your link).

Forgive me, but thats just plain stupid! Cypress has the same amount of memory...
Then what would you attribute the unproportional loss to? Obviously, both cards have to do the same workloads in terms of AA-Resolves, filled and shaded polygons, setup triangles and rasterized pixels.
 
Cool, the GTX285 goes from 37% faster than 4870 to 57% slower. Wait, could it be that the card is running out of memory? :LOL:
This isn't the first time NVidia has claimed performance improvements based on scenarios where the older card was kiboshed by its lack of memory ;)

Jawed
 
Your thoughts: which of these (or neither) sounds more probable, and is this a reasonable way to look at things :?:
Yep, an entirely reasonable way to look at things.

It's worth noting, though, that major DX version inflections have created serious problems in time to market, DX9 gave NVidia grief, D3D10 ATI and now D3D11...

How many more inflections are yet to come? How many more architectures will NVidia do between Fermi and its eventual arrival at something that looks like Larrabee?

Jawed
 
A vapor chamber is a heatpipe, just a really wide one (aka. flat heatpipe).
I know, but thanks to exclusively owned patents and stuff, I'd reckon, they be quite a bit more expensive than their royalty-free brethren. Especially in capacities exceeding 300 watts.
 
Flat heat pipes are ancient (saw them in patents from the 60s or 70s). Also you don't need a single one for both dies, it's just a heat spreader (if they both use half the heatsink then that's fine too). If you google a bit you can find others :
http://www.amecthermasol.co.uk/coolpipes.html
http://www.novelconceptsinc.com/heat-spreaders.htm

So there is some competitive pressure. The lack of volume would have made them more expensive, but thanks to Sapphire the production has really ramped.
 
Problem is that ATI has yet to reveal its DX1 generation archtiekture, with RV870 being an evolution of the previous generation. When R900 comes it might make Fermi look rather lame.

And the generation after Fermi might do the very same to AMD's generation at the time...do you notice a trend by any chance? Why would I as a consumer care what each IHVs roadmap will look like in the future exactly? I may care out of technical curiousity but that's an entirely different chapter. If I want a DX11 GPU today I'll just waltz into the next best store and buy whichever Evergreen variant suits my needs. And no there's no such thing as a half assed DX11 generation or anything else; it's just that IHVs typically try to increase efficiency in future projects wherever possible.

Evergreen is a fully compliant DX11 GPU family and yes there are very good chances that future DX11 architectures from AMD will be far more efficient. But then again it's not coming that soon either.

Due to the fact that Fermi is hardly able to veat an evolutionary ATI chip, I have little confidence for the future of that line. Especially if you consider the production problems and the TDW, which means one GPU from Fermi is more expensive than 2 RV870s. More expensive for NV and more expensive for the user, while lacking eyefinity.
Apart from funky marketing material show me where I can buy a GF100 and judge myself how it compares to X or Y. Until I see a number of independent tests/comparisons on final available products I won't dare to jump to any conclusions.

And no I won't care either directly as a consumer if IHV A has higher manufacturing costs then IHV B. What I'll rate personally is the price/performance ratio in strict combination with image quality and if the balance of all those factors is worth it I might even close an eye in terms of power consumption assuming it's not over Hemlock's power envelope. As for final MSRPs since I haven't seen anything yet related for GF100's you obviously know something definite we don't know yet.
 
I'll keep it short, forgive me.
...
• Board-Design should be using far more complex circuitry, because it has to switch two chips within mikrosekonds

Sorry, I dont follow what that's about. Can somebody explain that last point in one sentence? thanks.
 
Problem is that ATI has yet to reveal its DX1 generation archtiekture, with RV870 being an evolution of the previous generation. When R900 comes it might make Fermi look rather lame.

Due to the fact that Fermi is hardly able to veat an evolutionary ATI chip, I have little confidence for the future of that line. Especially if you consider the production problems and the TDW, which means one GPU from Fermi is more expensive than 2 RV870s. More expensive for NV and more expensive for the user, while lacking eyefinity.

How can you make such statements where you don't know that much about Fermi, let alone future ATI products?

And while it might be more expensive for NV, recent history shows that both camps price their lineups according to competitive edge they do or don't have, not some sort of a cost+margin model. Eyefinity is a nice feature, but I don't see many consumers taking advantage of it (I know I don't at the moment).
 
There is no demand for more than two active displays.
This is an absolute non-truth, especially when talking about professional and commercial graphics. There are lots of markets for them, I've had all kinds of companies, from digital signage to Aquariums(!) asking for boards! Precisely the same reason Matrox recently delivered an entire line of multi-display cards as well.
 
This is
an absolute non-truth, especially when talking about professional and commercial graphics. There are lots of markets for them, I'v had all kinds of companies, from digital signage to Aquariums(!) asking for boards! Precisely the same reason Matrox recently delivered an entire line of multi-display cards as well.

Speaking of which, is their any hope for mainstream and low-end cards with 4~6 outputs? For office work it would be great.
 
Sorry, I dont follow what that's about. Can somebody explain that last point in one sentence? thanks.

You need to switch power within mikroseconds to adapt to GPU-load. I think that's a non-trivial task when done cost-sensitive even for a single gpu-board. With (any) Dual-GPU-confgurations, you multiply the complexity (again: IMHO) because the load stays constant for both GPUs only in some kind of power-virus-apps like Furmark.

This is
an absolute non-truth, especially when talking about professional and commercial graphics. There are lots of markets for them, I'v had all kinds of companies, from digital signage to Aquariums(!) asking for boards! Precisely the same reason Matrox recently delivered an entire line of multi-display cards as well.
While you're listening: How "soon" is soon for the eyefinity-edition announced to be coming soon back in september?
 
You need to switch power within mikroseconds to adapt to GPU-load. I think that's a non-trivial task when done cost-sensitive even for a single gpu-board. With (any) Dual-GPU-confgurations, you multiply the complexity (again: IMHO) because the load stays constant for both GPUs only in some kind of power-virus-apps like Furmark.
Eh? You don't switch power between GPU's, they each have their own set of dedicated regulators. Even power steering from the different inputs isn't particularly complicated and is frequently done on much lower cost boards.
 
Eh? You don't switch power between GPU's, they each have their own set of dedicated regulators. Even power steering from the different inputs isn't particularly complicated and is frequently done on much lower cost boards.

That's not what i meant. You change loads on both GPUs probably a couple of dozen if not hundred times per second - independently of each other. Or is that plainly wrong?
 
Speaking of which, is their any hope for mainstream and low-end cards with 4~6 outputs? For office work it would be great.
5670 should have some 4 output versions out soon for around $110 from what I've been hearing, gads I need to get some displayport capable monitors soon!
 
That's not what i meant. You change loads on both GPUs probably a couple of dozen if not hundred times per second - independently of each other. Or is that plainly wrong?
The boards are designed such that each GPU can operate at peak load constantly, because, ideally, thats how they can operate and is the point of AFR (one is operating on frame n and the other n-1). Obviously there will be bubbles in a CPU bound environment, which may mean one will instantaneoulsy have a low load, but its designed for full load.
 
Hmm. Well I was cautiously optimistic when the initial Fermi information came out a couple of days ago, but with a bit more thought, I am less so. Really all we've had is a couple of canned benchmarks and PR material. Without all the other information such as independent gaming benchmarks, clocks, power, noise, heat, price, etc, there isn't really enough information to form an opinion on the product as a whole. Fermi could be ten times faster than the competition, but if it sounds like a jet engine and costs ten times the price, it won't be a viable mainstream product, even for the gaming high end. I agree wholeheartedly with Rys - we still don't know enough, and what we do know is just from Nvidia marketing with their expected bias and spin.

Fermi is still several months away, and the ATI refresh will be straight on top of it, no doubt with price cuts on their current cards. This will change the context of Fermi as a product by the time it finally arrives in the market. When Fermi finally arrives in that new competitive landscape, and we actually know what it is beyond the current constrained PR spin, we can actually decide if it's any good, and more or less desirable than competitor offereings.

I suspect that even if Fermi wins the battle at the high end, ATI will win the war with their better yields, smaller dies, more latitude for price cuts, power/heat envelopes, and a full top to bottom DX11 range. I think Nvidia may not make much money if it has to cut prices, and may not sell many units if they cost so much more than an ATI product that offers nearly all the same gaming performance for significantly less money.

Also, more interesting will be what happens at the end of the year, with a Fermi re-spin to give us a full 512 SP product at better clockspeeds, but it may well be facing the R9xx - possibly on a 32nm Gobal Foundries process? I think the next 12 months will be very interesting, with frantic competition and some very interesting new products at great prices for gamers.
 
The boards are designed such that each GPU can operate at peak load constantly, because, ideally, thats how they can operate and is the point of AFR (one is operating on frame n and the other n-1). Obviously there will be bubbles in a CPU bound environment, which may mean one will instantaneoulsy have a low load, but its designed for full load.
That's not what I'm talking about either.
I don't say they cannot do it, but apparently, load is not always the same. Even if you're not CPU-bound there are tasks which do not utilize your engines as much as others. Consequently, current requirements change for each GPU quite often and the board's circuitry does have to take that into account.

My point is: The necessary provisions for that are not exactly dirt-cheap to realize.
 
That's not what I'm talking about either.
I don't say they cannot do it, but apparently, load is not always the same. Even if you're not CPU-bound there are tasks which do not utilize your engines as much as others. Consequently, current requirements change for each GPU quite often and the board's circuitry does have to take that into account.

My point is: The necessary provisions for that are not exactly dirt-cheap to realize.

Isn't what you're talking about taken care of by voltage regulators? As Dave said, boards are designed to handle full load all the time.
 
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