NV40: Surprise, disappointment, or just what you expected?

Nick Spolec said:
The missing 4 pipes are not the ONLY parts of the chip/transistor that were cut out from the 9600. How could you even not mention this?

You are forgetting that the 9600 is also missing (from the 9800) Hierarchical Z, has 2 less geometry engines, doesn't have the F-buffer, and probably has a slew of other differences/changes inside the core that save on die space and transistor count (this includes chip optimazations).
I simply thought that was obvious. This sort of thing is what will allow the ATI to increase complexity to allow for more instructions and temporaries for the R420, and also increase efficiency.

What I'm not seeing is any possibility for a huge leap in processing power per pipeline.
 
lukar said:
Those are final stats...
But I have to mention, I forgot, that r420 will support FP24 and FP32 as well...
So basically r420 will, depending of complexity of shader instructions do switch back and forth between FP24 and FP32. It's not going to be control by software, but by hardware itself...

[bartsimpson] i'm not calling you a liar but.....i really cant think of a way to finish that sentence [/bartsimpson]
 
Chalnoth said:
What I'm not seeing is any possibility for a huge leap in processing power per pipeline.
Ahh, I think you're forgetting all about the new "extreme" label they've added to their pipelines... ;)
 
trinibwoy said:
Ummmm he admitted that ATI might be faster....and where does he try to convince anybody of anything? Why do you care what he spends his own money on? As mentioned before he has a valid point in stating that most of the games he plays traditionally exhibit strong performance on Nvidia's cards.

No he says Nvidia will be faster in OpenGL games, but he can't know this because we haven't seen R420:

surfhurleydude said:
I'm only really going to play Doom 3, Call of Duty (And the new one too ), and a few other games that are obviously going to be where nVidia simply takes the cake without much of a problem.

Was NV30 "tradionally strong" on OpenGL games, or did the R3x0 speed advantage more than offset that?

trinibwoy said:
Why should he have to wait? Not everyone will buy from either IHV based on a few fps here and there. NV40 seems to be an excellent offering and regardless of ATI's best he may be happy to shell out his dough for it. Given NV40's performance it's hardly likely that this round will be a blowout in terms of performance.

There won't be any waiting. Chances are that both R420 and NV40 will be available at the same time (or R420 sooner).

If you're going to use spurious logic to choose one card over another while we've only got half the necessary information for an informed choice, expect to be called on it. Like I said there's nothing wrong in chosing based on brand loyalty, but let's not pretend it's because of something else, such as a baseless guess of one API's performance. It's no more valid than choosing R420 because ATI have been "tradionally strong in Direct X" without knowing whether this is the case this time around or not.
 
Chalnoth said:
I simply thought that was obvious. This sort of thing is what will allow the ATI to increase complexity to allow for more instructions and temporaries for the R420, and also increase efficiency.
quote]

That has nothing to do with what I was quoting.

You need to make up your mind, because every other post from you seems like a contradiction to the last.
 
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros. said:
Was NV30 "tradionally strong" on OpenGL games, or did the R3x0 speed advantage more than offset that?
nVidia has typically been faster at OpenGL than Direct3D, while the opposite is true for ATI. I definitely expect nVidia to have an advantage in OpenGL games, particularly when stencil volume shadows are used.
 
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros. said:
If you're going to use spurious logic to choose one card over another while we've only got half the necessary information for an informed choice, expect to be called on it. Like I said there's nothing wrong in chosing based on brand loyalty, but let's not pretend it's because of something else, such as a baseless guess of one API's performance. It's no more valid than choosing R420 because ATI have been "tradionally strong in Direct X" without knowing whether this is the case this time around or not.

To your point of Nv3x performance I think we can all agree that it was a sham and most likely NV40 is a lot more efficient. Further, given NV3x inefficiency it still had very good showings in OGL games which supports surfhurleydude's assertion.

All I'm saying is that it's a bit high-handed to 'call' somebody on a purchase decision when it's their money being spent. I see a lot of that around here and just think people get carried away sometimes.
 
What I'm not seeing is any possibility for a huge leap in processing power per pipeline.

Why am I not surprised?

The R420 is a derivative of the R300 architecture so they've had years to fine tune the hardware design. Here are a few examples of what they could do.
1) Reduce the number of clock cycles it takes to complete a number of key DX9 instructions. We know that a number of them took multiple clock cycles to execute, shouldn't take much to fine tune those.
2) Add a second ALU to each pipe. ATi and nvidia count transistors differently, nvidia include ALL transistors including cache etc which ATi don't. So basing comparisons on nvidia cards is a bad idea, even basing them on previous ATi chips leads to erroneous assumptions.
3) Clock double each pipe's ALU.

Even if none of the above are utilised, which I very highly doubt, there are still lots os options open to ATi for boosting the performance of the R420.

You may not see any possibility, but I suspect the main reason for that is a) Lack of real information on the R420.
b) Transistor counting disparities between ATi and nvidia. i.e it's NOT 222M (for the NV40) vs 160M to 180M (for the R420)
c) You own personal bias.

I honestly don't see a,b or c as very good grounds for making the sort of claims that you currently are.

Now I'm not you're wrong and I'm right, it's far too early to make bold claims about what ATi can and cannot do with the R420.

particularly when stencil volume shadows are used.

Unless ATi add their own Stencil acceleration features...
 
trinibwoy said:
To your point of Nv3x performance I think we can all agree that it was a sham and most likely NV40 is a lot more efficient. Further, given NV3x inefficiency it still had very good showings in OGL games which supports surfhurleydude's assertion.

But not enough to offset the poor performance compared to ATI, for that generation.

trinibwoy said:
All I'm saying is that it's a bit high-handed to 'call' somebody on a purchase decision when it's their money being spent. I see a lot of that around here and just think people get carried away sometimes.

I have no problem with someone saying they will buy NV40 because they trust in Nvidia and NV40 will be pretty good in OpenGL games. I have a problem when they say that NV40 will be better and "take the cake" from R420 when we have seen nothing of R420.

People can spend their money anyway they see fit, but when they come here and give nonsensical reasons and say NV40 will "take the cake" from R420 without having any other reason than faith - well let's call a spade a spade, eh?
 
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros said:
I have no problem with someone saying they will buy NV40 because they trust in Nvidia and NV40 will be pretty good in OpenGL games. I have a problem when they say that NV40 will be better and "take the cake" from R420 when we have seen nothing of R420.

People can spend their money anyway they see fit, but when they come here and give nonsensical reasons and say NV40 will "take the cake" from R420 without having any other reason than faith - well let's call a spade a spade, eh?

Granted. However, given NV40's showing and Nvidia's OpenGL strength if R420 bests NV40 in OpenGL games then its DirectX performance will probably blow it out of the water so all the better for us.
 
ATI's main OGL issues are all driver related, and they realise that. I think that they will begin to get better within 6-18 months.
 
DaveBaumann said:
ATI's main OGL issues are all driver related, and they realise that. I think that they will begin to get better within 6-18 months.

Ati also had support for Open GL HLSL before Nvidia which was a big surprise for me. So it seems that things are getting better in that area.
 
OH, ATI are big supporters of the OpenGL2.0 movement. In fact, I'd imagine that the sooner the move to a real, new, OpenGL2.0 core happens the more pleased they will be.
 
trinibwoy said:
Granted. However, given NV40's showing and Nvidia's OpenGL strength if R420 bests NV40 in OpenGL games then its DirectX performance will probably blow it out of the water so all the better for us.

Well *if* that's the case (a posibility given the strong rumours of higher ATI clocks than Nvidia), then wouldn't surfhurleydude have been better buying R420 for the games he is interested in?

This is my point. Given that we'll know all of this in a couple of weeks and before either card is available to buy, to say you've already made a buying decision because NV40 is faster when you know no such thing, is completely premature. It's not based on facts, just wishful thinking and brand loyalty.
 
How does Nvidia have OpenGL strength when their Nv.3x doesn't even have full support for Glslang...and when enabled by some coolbits hack doesn't render everything. :!:
 
Doomtrooper said:
How does Nvidia have OpenGL strength when their Nv.3x doesn't even have full support for Glslang...and when enabled by some coolbits hack doesn't render everything. :!:

Stop nitpicking man. I think it was obvious that we were discussing performance not features support. :devilish:
 
DaveBaumann said:
ATI's main OGL issues are all driver related, and they realise that. I think that they will begin to get better within 6-18 months.

For those not fluent in Baumannteasease yet, that means "look for a totally new openGL module in the now-getting-hyped-all-over catalyst release scheduled for about a month and a half from now"

DaveBaumann said:
OH, ATI are big supporters of the OpenGL2.0 movement. In fact, I'd imagine that the sooner the move to a real, new, OpenGL2.0 core happens the more pleased they will be.

Again a quick run thru the teasalator makes it roughly, "look for ATi to fully support openGL 2.0's features and to rock with 'em!".

:p
 
DaveBaumann said:
OH, ATI are big supporters of the OpenGL2.0 movement. In fact, I'd imagine that the sooner the move to a real, new, OpenGL2.0 core happens the more pleased they will be.

I guess the DX9 advantage R3xx had on NV3x was just to big to pass up..
thus they are looked upon as Pro DX above OGL, dunno..

Latly ive been getting the feeling that OGL is dying in the gaming realm..
can only think of Doom3 engine that is currently using OGL among the more
modern games..
and XNA seems to be Microsoft trying to drive the nails into the OGL coffin
by "buying" developers over with easy-to-use toolsets for developing with
DirectX...

But i guess, when OGL 2.0 is done, and shows advantages to DirectX the devs could just as easy start using it instead of DX..
 
digitalwanderer said:
"Full support for PS3.0 and VS3.0 (DX9.0c)"? Then why did they write the PS 2.0b standard? (And are you saying you think those are the final stats or is it your guess?)

Just throwing this out there because it amuses me to do so, I don't believe those specs. What if ps2.0b is just for the lower end cards?
 
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