NV30- the fan will last how long, we must dust it how often?

[flf]

The fact the GeforceFX draws *directly* from outside the case is reason enough to "suspect" that dust/debris would be more of a problem.

Well, all air circulated through the case comes from outside the case. Cases that provide any sort of filtration are few and far between. As such, I'd say this design is actually better than the "average" design based upon the fact that it does have at least a rudimentary filter.

As I've stated above, I just had to replace the heatsink on a GF4200 because the fan got gummed up internally and stopped spinning. No amount of my using cotton swabs to clean the externals of the fan is going to prevent the fan from gumming up internally.

Maybe I'll rig a case some day to be as airtight as possible and control the airflow through it and fully filter it. I think that'll be the only way to have your case fans free of large particulate matter (cat hairs), leaving only micro dust to be blown out occasionally.

Anyhow, the point is, I feel you're being overly negative, whilst Chalnoth is being slightly positive.

 

[noko]

oh boy 8)

noko wrote: Dust hinders air flow (increasing laminar flow) as well as to trap air (hey, increasing laminar flow again).

Demalion wrote Hmm? Are you trying to maintain that dust increases viscosity?

huh? not really. Interesting thought, must have alot of dust babies to do that. Just kidding. Basically to clarify myself better, I hope: As dust builds up in the NV30 gaseous cooling system (hehe, being specific) air restrictions go up -> causing the average velocity of air flow to go down -> causing the average mass flow rate of air to go down -> causing increase laminar flow. Does that sound better?

I was going to break it down more except I am having a hard time getting my Word Perfect 10 equation editor to do what I want. More later.

 

[noko]

"I love how your equation just has a U in there... that U being the most difficult part of the equation to even define, let alone solve."

U The overall heat transfer coefficient. Now this isn't no big mystery. What does it mean?

• It for one, coverts a temperture difference into a heat transfer rate.
• Another way to look at it is how much energy can I transfer for every 1 degree Celsius difference per each square centimeter of heat transfer area
  Or
• You can use different units such as for every 1 degree F difference in temperture you get so many BTU/hr per square inch.
• Also indirectly shows how effective or efficient your heat transfer medium is.

How will U change as the dust builds up? Well if you are changing the characteristics of the heat transfer surface then yes this will change and the value will go down, as in it takes a higher difference in temperture to give you the same amount of heat transfer previously.

 

[Bigus Dickus]

U The overall heat transfer coefficient. Now this isn't no big mystery. What does it mean?

Well, I was simply pointing out that sometimes it is a big mystery. U (or h) is influenced by fluid properties (viscosity, conductive coefficient, etc.), fluid velocity, mass flow rate of fluid (doesn't always have the same impact as velocity), surface roughness, fin geometry, fin orientation, etc. etc. etc.

For many people, it is a mystery, and even for many smart people when the system becomes complex it is still a pain in the ass.

 

[Sharkfood]

Well, all air circulated through the case comes from outside the case. Cases that provide any sort of filtration are few and far between.

ALL cases provide a "sort" of filtration- its called debris passing over charged components (i.e. mainboard and other cards). This is why mainboards and slots become so covered with dust- they are literally dust magnets. Dust clinging to the mainboard isnt a great thing, but it's much better than having it in moving parts/bearings.

Anyhow, the point is, I feel you're being overly negative, whilst Chalnoth is being slightly positive.

Nothing overly negative about facts. Modern tower-style cases draw air (i.e. lowest resistance path) from front/lower portion as intake, with exhaust being upper/back around power supply. All case ventilation paths follow this basic principle as this causes the flow of air to start at bottom/farthest point of motherboard, across all slots, then finally across the "core"- which is the AGP/CPU/Memory area. Even the cheapest of Taiwan clone cases follow this pattern and only the finest/smallest debris in the air make it to the CPU/AGP/Memory "core" area as they cling to components prior.

Also there nothing "positive" about fiction. The "absolutely no reason to suspect" claims are absolute nonsense... on both counts. There has been every single common sense reason to "suspect"- if not be downright assured, if even from just testimonials of those at product launch. If we are going to selectively throw-away reports from product launch, then we should throw away all reports as incorrect- the good with the bad. But having observations reported and pick/choose which ones to support and which to discard is a bit bogus IMO.

 

[RussSchultz]

There has been every single common sense reason to "suspect"- if not be downright assured, if even from just testimonials of those at product launch. If we are going to selectively throw-away reports from product launch, then we should throw away all reports as incorrect- the good with the bad. But having observations reported and pick/choose which ones to support and which to discard is a bit bogus IMO.

Except the observations had nothing to do with the efficiency or the MTBF of the cooling system. The only first hand observations had to do with the amount of noise the fan made, which I don't think anybody is debating. If you can draw conclusions of reliability from pictures and the reported noise it makes, then you're a better armchair physicist than I.

 

[Bigus Dickus]

No, I think some people were even debating how loud it would be, despite first hand reports that it wasn't silent.

 

[KimB]

No, I think some people were even debating how loud it would be, despite first hand reports that it wasn't silent.

Could you find links to these first hand reports?

 

[Ichneumon]

No, I think some people were even debating how loud it would be, despite first hand reports that it wasn't silent.

Could you find links to these first hand reports?

Sure, its not like its all that hard.
here's one from Tom's: http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphic/02q4/021118/geforcefx-03.html

"The demo board, which NVIDIA demonstrated in an nForce2 system, produced a lot of heat. The air coming out of the fan grille is hot to the touch. While the system was quite loud overall, we could still make out the Flow FX fan - not a very positive trait. NVIDIA has promised to refine the design to make it quieter. "

Does it get any more blantantly said than that?

Anand simply regurgitates FXFlow PR... and even that when not read with rose-tinted glasses leaves you with the impression the card will be noisy when it is under load -- From Anand: http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1749&p=6

"When sitting in a 2D situation the card will scale back the clock speed of parts of the 3D pipeline that aren't in use, thus allowing the fan to spin much slower. As soon as you start using the GPU for games or any other 3D intensive applications, the clock speeds up as does the fan. The idea is that if you're gaming you're not as concerned with noise as when you are typing in Word. "

 

[Bjorn]

"When sitting in a 2D situation the card will scale back the clock speed of parts of the 3D pipeline that aren't in use, thus allowing the fan to spin much slower. As soon as you start using the GPU for games or any other 3D intensive applications, the clock speeds up as does the fan. The idea is that if you're gaming you're not as concerned with noise as when you are typing in Word. "

If this is negative depends on if the card produces more noise then other common cards (take my rather noisy dual fan Leadtek GF4 Ti 4400 as an example). Tom seemed to imply that it produced more noise then what is common today, something that Nvidia said that they will fix.

If Nvidia solves that, well, then you'll have a very nice and quiet solution for when you're programming or doing other non 3D intensive stuff. And a "not more noisy then other cards" solution for gaming.

 

[tamattack]

Oh...using it for a LAN. Well that might make sense. I was thinking of it being a cheap micro-atx board for those into saving money.

Actually, I find the SFFs to be more expensive...

 

[tamattack]

powerful 3D chips go into your desktop PC, not your laptop and not your firewall router or video server.

Actually, for most of us, they go into our gaming PCs, irrespective of the form factor (although, obviously we're not at the point where a laptop can offer the same level of 3D chip as a desktop).

 

[tamattack]

Well, officially, the Shuttle SG51 won't take a R9700, as the power supply is only 200W. Actually, it does work but I need that card for work so I put a R9000 in instead

Me drools....

 

[tamattack]

I may as well bring up the possibility of ATI 9700 PRO's not fitting inside 1U rackmounted servers. Oopps, ATI locked themselvers out of the "blade" rackmounted renderfarm market.

And??? No one has yet to design a video card that will fit into a toaster either. The point is that there is an actual (vs. hypothetical) demand for high-end graphics in SFF PCs.

Do we even know if the 9700 PRO works in the Shuttle devices without overheating and drawing too much power from its measely 200W power supply?

Well, earlier in this thread:

Well, officially, the Shuttle SG51 won't take a R9700, as the power supply is only 200W. Actually, it does work

Is this another case of an irrelevant 9700PRO advantage that is simply unconfirmed no-evidence conjecture?

Maybe irrelevant to you, but obviously not irrelevant to someone with limited space inside their PC, such as SFF PCs.

I mean, really, the people who are harping on this whole cooling issue really are concerned about NVidia right? Rational observers merely exploring a use case scenario? We don't even know what the product line will be yet, whether there will be a 400Mhz version with regular cooling, or whether another OEM will ship a card with a different cooling technology. And what the NV31 and NV34 will be like. And already we are speculating that there will never be an NVidia DX9 card that works in a small form factor case.

In the absence of actual information, all we are left with is speculation.

I truly do not believe that most of the negative commentators are unbiased and honest.

Quite true. But lemme ask you this... Someone hands you a dart while you're standing in front of a dartboard... What do you do? I'll bet you throw the dart at the dartboard... And that crazy cooling system is just such an obvious target for criticism.

I'm really getting sick of the people here polarizing the discussion in the total absense of facts.

Fact: GFFX reference design includes the over-the-top cooling system.

Fact: Physically, this design will not fit into a Shuttle SFF PC.

Just look at the extreme and insinuating adjectives used to describe the NV30 in the thread. Do we really need use words like "monstrousity" or "ultrahot", "destroy" or "smash" when talking about the feature sets between these two cards?

Re: "destroy" or "smash", I absolutely agree with you.

Re: "monstrosity" or "ultrahot", if in relation to the GFFX cooling system, seems absolutely justifiable. Do you not call an ugly shirt "ugly"? If the hat fits...

 

[tamattack]

The XPC's generally have two expansion slots, so if you can manage to get everything you want integrated, there's no problem.

True, but their placement precludes any possibility of inserting a GFFX with the monster cooler.

You can see from this picture (which is linked from the tech-report.com website... hopefully they don't mind...) that the AGP slot is on the outside, and thus the monster cooler would protrude beyond the edge of the case.

 

[Dio]

Well, officially, the Shuttle SG51 won't take a R9700, as the power supply is only 200W. Actually, it does work but I need that card for work so I put a R9000 in instead

Me drools....

To anyone thinking of doing this I must add 'Your mileage may vary'. ATI recommend a 300W power supply for R9700Pro.

 

[antlers]

Won't there be a lot of PC's that are incompatible with the GeForce FX? I mean, the Shuttles will be the least of their problems. ATI recommends a 350 watt power supply (although less will work if your PC is not loaded up)--if the FX really needs all that cooling to get rid of the heat it dissipates, isn't it going to require a monster power supply (hairdryers generally run 900 w and up ) to run reliably? Won't that essentially eliminate the possibility of it running in any mass-produced (Dell, Gateway, HP) PC?

 

[Bjorn]

True, but their placement precludes any possibility of inserting a GFFX with the monster cooler.

You can see from this picture (which is linked from the tech-report.com website... hopefully they don't mind...) that the AGP slot is on the outside, and thus the monster cooler would protrude beyond the edge of the case.

Go back in this thread a little bit (page 8, posted by darkblu) and you'll find this:

a quick look up at the prizes section (at http://www.cgshaders.org/contest/contest-results-02.php):

Sound cool? So what are the prizes?

NV30 Category Prizes
1st Prize: NV30-based Shuttle XPC System (info!)
2nd Prize: NV30-based Graphics Board
General Category Prizes
1st Prize: Quadro4 750 XGL
2nd Prize: GeForce4 Ti 4600

(That might of course be the non Ultra version that maybe doesn't have the cooling solution in question)

 

[Dave Baumann]

Actually, that kinda lends more credability to this solution being a fairly late addition.

 

[tamattack]

(That might of course be the non Ultra version that maybe doesn't have the cooling solution in question)

I think you just answered your own question...

Actually, that kinda lends more credability to this solution being a fairly late addition.

Didn't actually consider that possibility until your post...