Nobody should buy a 360 ever.

[Silent_Buddha]

I am not implying anything, i am pretty sure they knew they where shipping Consoles that wouldn´t last.
http://venturebeat.com/2008/09/05/x...istory-of-microsofts-video-game-console-woes/

And i think the history speaks for itself, they didn´t get the problems under control, and they kept selling the machine. I can understand their reasons, in a weird money/consolewar way they had no choice, just as Sony had no choice but to sell the PS3 at a gigantic loss because their Blu-Ray Drive had a very critical and expensive component with very low yield numbers..

Yes, I read through that entire article. And nowhere are any sources linked to or quoted or even attributed to with regards to the authors conjecture that MS knew about it.

All the article says is

Microsoft knew it had flawed machines, but it did not delay its launch because it believed the quality problems would subside over time.

Where's the proof? There isn't even a quote anywhere attributed to where he might think that's the case.

No leaked memo. No inside information from a MS engineer. No statements from a MS employee. Nothing.

I could just as easily say. "George Bush knew about the attacks on 911 months before the attack on the twin towers, yet chose to do nothing about it."

Both statements have equal veracity. Both statements have no proof with which to back them up.

And that's your entire proof for your claim that Microsoft knowingly released a faulty console?

All indications are that this caught MS by surprise and that they weren't expecting it.

Regards,
SB

 

[obonicus]

Well, from the venturebeat article, first page, it sources this article: http://blog.seattlepi.com/digitaljoystick/archives/129866.asp

Second, MS was so focused on beating Sony this cycle that the 360 was rushed to market when all indications were that it had serious flaws. The design qual testing was insufficient and incomplete when the product was released to production.

The guy being interviewed is supposedly an insider. You could question his credentials, of course.

Second page of the venturebeat article says:

But the evidence for the quality debacle was there to see even before Microsoft shipped any machines. In August, 2005, as Microsoft was gearing up production, an engineer raised a hand and said, “Stop. You have to shut down the line.” This wasn’t just a brief moment. The engineer spoke up repeatedly.

That engineer, who asked not to be identified, had deep experience in manufacturing. When production results were really off kilter, stopping a line and tracing a problem back to its roots was the answer. But the higher-ranking engineers, managers and executives chose to risk going forward. There wasn’t a universal backlash from the engineering ranks, according to one engineering source.

Nobody listened to that engineer — who spoke on condition of anonymity — apparently because console launches are always hurried affairs. Yields — the percentage of working products in a given batch of total products produced — generally start low. As the manufacturers conduct statistical analysis and tight controls on every step in assembly, they learn how to drive the yields up.

Still, the picture wasn’t pretty. The defect rate for the machines was an abysmal 68 percent at that point, according to several sources. That meant for every 100 machines that Microsoft’s contract manufacturers, Flextronics and Wistron, made at their factories in China, 68 didn’t work. At the recent dinner, Bach denied that there was a big concern about defects at that point in time.

Supposedly an MS engineer speaking up to Dean Takahashi. There's probably more, but that's a cursory scan of the article.

You can question the sources, but they're fairly solid, unless you're expecting a leaked memo from MS that confesses to everything. I don't think you're going to say that. Just like you're not going to hear Sony say: 'yeah, when we said rumble was last-gen, we were lying, we just couldn't get a license on the tech'.

This is actually an old discussion, we talked endlessly about this last september when this article showed up.

 

[RobertR1]

I went through 3 PS1's and 2 PS2's and the PS2 I didn't really play that much as I had shifted towards PC gaming. I paid whatever was the retail price for each replacement at the time.

I had my launch 360 RROD on me, sold the replacement to a friend after a year of usage (still works perfectly for him) and bought an Elite when they came out and it hasn't given me any issues.

I replaced the PS1 3 times because that's the console I wanted and cared for. Same with the PS2. The 360 follows the same trends. If it craps out with something that warranty doesn't cover, I'll buy a replacement in a matter of hours. Why? because it's where I get my entertainment. The dollar to time spend ratio on the 360 is ridiculously low for me, at this point. Weird enough, I recall my SNES being the most reliable console ever. The only maintenance I ever did was blowing into the cartridge slot once in a blue moon.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Well, from the venturebeat article, first page, it sources this article: http://blog.seattlepi.com/digitaljoystick/archives/129866.asp

Interesting as the engineer claims that failure is "It's around 30%, and all will probably fail early." Yet there are still many launch 360's that are just peachy. Also that "There are also other significantly high failure rates in other areas, like the DVD." And I haven't heard a big uproar about that.

The guy being interviewed is supposedly an insider. You could question his credentials, of course.

Second page of the venturebeat article says:



Supposedly an MS engineer speaking up to Dean Takahashi. There's probably more, but that's a cursory scan of the article.

You can question the sources, but they're fairly solid, unless you're expecting a leaked memo from MS that confesses to everything. I don't think you're going to say that. Just like you're not going to hear Sony say: 'yeah, when we said rumble was last-gen, we were lying, we just couldn't get a license on the tech'.

This is actually an old discussion, we talked endlessly about this last september when this article showed up.

/blush. OK, this is what I get for making a post soon after waking up and not being fully awake. I forgot to check if there was more than 1 page to the article. Going back to reread it...

Ooopsie.

[EDIT] I'm wondering where the 30% figure is coming from considering from this article...

Microsoft never disclosed its actual return rates. But according to data obtained by VentureBeat, the total number climbed above 1.2 million consoles in early 2007. That is a huge amount, considering Microsoft had only shipped 11.6 million into stores by the time of the announcement in mid-2007.

That'd be a little over 10%.

[Edit 2] Interesting article, I can see a couple of insurance companies are estimating roughly 15% failures which is still far lower than the 30% many forumites are parroting.

Also interesting, I didn't know about MS' plans for a Valhalla board with CPU and GPU on one chip. That would line up with a "relaunch" of X360 possibly with Natal.

Regards,
SB

 

[Squilliam]

There is a difference, but neither is meaningful enough to draw some conclusion from. You're claiming that consumer study reports are wrong but your sample size of 80 people you know can't say anything either way.

Unfortunately there is no meaningful data which gives the continued failure rate of the respective consoles as they go into their third/fourth year respectively.

 

[obonicus]

Unfortunately there is no meaningful data which gives the continued failure rate of the respective consoles as they go into their third/fourth year respectively.

But we do have some numbers, you were claiming those were false as well.

On a related note, finally got an arcade to replace my dead elite. From the chart, it's a Jasper -- man is is more silent than my old Zephyr. (Edit: popped a disc in, suddenly it's not so quiet, hahaha, but still not as bad as my old one.) Here's hoping it lasts.

 

[mrcorbo]

But we do have some numbers, you were claiming those were false as well.

On a related note, finally got an arcade to replace my dead elite. From the chart, it's a Jasper -- man is is more silent than my old Zephyr. (Edit: popped a disc in, suddenly it's not so quiet, hahaha, but still not as bad as my old one.) Here's hoping it lasts.

If you are using your Elite hard drive with your replacement unit I'd recommend taking advantage of the install feature. Your ears will thank you.

 

[-tkf-]

I'm wondering where the 30% figure is coming from considering from this article...
Regards,
SB

We don´t know the real number, but if you read the follow up to the article you can see several people with over 10 failures. 10! failures that is pretty insane, i think the highest number on failures for a single person is 13 or 14. And the reason people say "it´s just a question of time" is because of the way the thing breaks. Every electronic device has some kind of expected life time but that is in relation to the components breaking, not the general design having a flaw that causes it to break.

I hope you agree i weren´t implying something and i am mildly surprised you haven´t read the article, it was all over the net for 2 days

 

[Silent_Buddha]

No no, after I properly woke up and obonicus pointed out some things I didn't see in the ariticle I realized I hadn't actually read the whole article because I missed pages 2-6. LoL.

However, from everything I see. That 30% number is pure anecdotal evidence just like some numbers being bandied about for PS3 failure numbers being significantly higher (I think I've seen some claims of 10-15%) than the evidence we have available.

As far as I see, so far, the only credible numbers I see is that up to 2008, failure rate for X360 was around 15%. This from companies that handle the insurance claims. Granted, that doesn't account for consoles that people don't bother taking to MS to repair or whoever they got an extended warranty from.

However, the same goes for the PS3. I think the current number that is considered most reliable hovers around 1.5-2%?

Here's the conundrum though. X360 failures are easier to track as there is now a standard 3 year warranty on all consoles for RROD. And I believe MS repair policy on consoles out of warranty is slightly better than Sony's.

While PS3 has a 1 year standard warranty.

However, if we assume that once out of warranty most people won't bother to to take it back to the manufacturer to replace/repair, that means only consoles that fail while the console is under warranty will be tracked.

I just curious how PS3 numbers would come in if the warranty was extended to 3 years. Likewise, how X360's numbers would change if it was limited to 1 year.

And just interesting stuff from poking around... Don't take the below all that seriously.

Amusing stuff searching for PS3 warranty information. I'm running across all kinds of threads about Sony voiding the warranty on peoples PS3's if they are overly dusty, plugged into a surge protector (what?), and people paying 150 USD for their PS3 to be repaired. Oh and the mass hysteria about 3rd party cables that was totally blown out of proportion from misinterpreting the warranty text.

Curiosity got the better of me and decided to do a search on Xbox 360 warranty. Only thing that comes up is MS extending warranty... Oh and 99 USD for repairs...

Regards,
SB

 

[Arwin]

There should be much more out there, even on these forums. You sure you didn't come across any articles on how much money Microsoft reserved for dealing with RROD issues once they decided to extend the warranty to 3 years for instance? And no articles detailing class action suits concerning the DVD scratching issues as well as the RROD? There were class action suits in several countries, at the very least in the Netherlands. There should be some good information in those.

 

[-tkf-]

if they are overly dusty, plugged into a surge protector (what?), and people paying 150 USD for their PS3 to be repaired. Oh and the mass hysteria about 3rd party cables that was totally blown out of proportion from misinterpreting the warranty text.

The guy with the dusty PS3 surely got the attention he wanted, i am pretty sure that you can find dust failings for every console that includes a fan. And for every console there has to be someone that doesn´t get covered by warranty.

And considering how his PS3 looked:
http://consumerist.com/consumer/pol...usty-to-be-repaired-under-warranty-322858.php
Big pics work: http://www.homotron.net/2007/11/the_great_ps3_dust_warranty_co.html

I would say he got nothing more than could be expected, the weird thing is that he even claims that he cleaned the PS3 before he shipped it:

I had wiped it off before sending it out

Yeh right

 

[obonicus]

If you are using your Elite hard drive with your replacement unit I'd recommend taking advantage of the install feature. Your ears will thank you.

Yeah, that's the first thing I did, after trying out Mass Effect. I then realized that I probably don't want to play Mass Effect again.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

There should be much more out there, even on these forums. You sure you didn't come across any articles on how much money Microsoft reserved for dealing with RROD issues once they decided to extend the warranty to 3 years for instance? And no articles detailing class action suits concerning the DVD scratching issues as well as the RROD? There were class action suits in several countries, at the very least in the Netherlands. There should be some good information in those.

Well yes on the RROD, as it was the entire reason for extending the warranty to 3 years. I just figured that went without saying.

And I only went about 15-20 pages deep when looking at the search results for X360. So I'm sure if I'd have kept going I'd run into older articles going into more detail with all the stuff that prompted the extension of the warranty.

As I said, I just found it interesting, not something to be taken seriously. In that a quick looking at the results (I'm assuming results are sorted not only by relevancy but by time also) shows that recently there's been a bit more noise with regards to PS3 than X360 with regards to warranty claims...

Perhaps due to having a shorter warranty and thus IF your PS3 is to fail, it's likely to be out of warranty versus an X360 that would qualify for the 3 year warranty.

Again, nothing exhaustive, nothing definitive. Nothing I can state such and such about. Just interesting is all.

Regards,
SB

 

[Silent_Buddha]

The guy with the dusty PS3 surely got the attention he wanted, i am pretty sure that you can find dust failings for every console that includes a fan. And for every console there has to be someone that doesn´t get covered by warranty.

And considering how his PS3 looked:
http://consumerist.com/consumer/pol...usty-to-be-repaired-under-warranty-322858.php
Big pics work: http://www.homotron.net/2007/11/the_great_ps3_dust_warranty_co.html

I would say he got nothing more than could be expected, the weird thing is that he even claims that he cleaned the PS3 before he shipped it:


Yeh right

Hahahaha, and Sony's refusal is based on the fact that the dust represented a threat to the technician's health?

My god, I breath in more dust and dried manure on the ranch than that in a few seconds outdoors on a normal summer day...

And 150 USD somehow makes it less of a threat?

Heck I think I breathe in more dangerous fumes desoldering system components from old MB's than this dust would represent...

Regards,
SB

 

[obonicus]

Hahahaha, and Sony's refusal is based on the fact that the dust represented a threat to the technician's health?

My god, I breath in more dust and dried manure on the ranch than that in a few seconds outdoors on a normal summer day...

You probably shouldn't spend your summers at Death Valley Manure Farm.

And 150 USD somehow makes it less of a threat?

Heck I think I breathe in more dangerous fumes desoldering system components from old MB's than this dust would represent...

The health complaint is nonsense, but they should have outright said that the warranty was void due to neglect. It looks like he kept his PS3 in the same room in which he operates a power sander.

 

[Asher]

Haha, that's why I'll never quit PC gaming! I refuse to be limited to such rudimentary standards.

While my 360s have had issues, I built a high-end gaming PC a couple years ago that was an endless nightmare of problems. I RMAed just about every component in the system except the CPU before it worked. Turns out it was a combination of bad motherboard, bad RAM, and bad PSU. Bad luck probably.

But while the 360 is annoying when it breaks, at least I don't need to rebuild it half a dozen times myself.

I still have stability issues...Fallout 3 even patched to the latest level with the latest Nvidia drivers crashes on me every 30 mins. I can't play Lord of the Rings Online with hardware audio because, even with the latest drivers, my X-Fi BSODs if I zone too many times in succession.

So this is not only a console phenomenon...

 

[-tkf-]

Hahahaha, and Sony's refusal is based on the fact that the dust represented a threat to the technician's health?

My god, I breath in more dust and dried manure on the ranch than that in a few seconds outdoors on a normal summer day...

And 150 USD somehow makes it less of a threat?

Heck I think I breathe in more dangerous fumes desoldering system components from old MB's than this dust would represent...

Regards,
SB

You and i can laugh all we want, but you know as well as i do that there most likely was a legal department somewhere involved in this. And honestly, the guy lives like a pig, treats his hardware like shit and should get all the shit back in his face for making so much noise over this.

Any way you started out with the history of Sony not wanting to fix a "dusty" PS3, now you see how dirty it was and you go for something else? do you honestly think that Warranty should cover that?

And Fumes from MB´s are nothing to make fun of you get cancer and shit from that, use a mask.

 

[-tkf-]

Again, nothing exhaustive, nothing definitive. Nothing I can state such and such about. Just interesting is all.

I reread these 2 posts and i still don´t get what you are hinting at. Are you saying that the PS3 breaks more than we know and the 360 numbers are inflated because they cover 3 years instead of 1 year?

In any case the PS3´s all had to start breaking down if they were to catch up with the 360 failure rate, and i am prerrty certain the the Viral Department at Microsofts lair is ready to dig up anything they can find.

 

[Tap In]

I buy in store warranties for my consoles and have had every single one of them die (except SNES and Genesis) over the years.

Walk in Walk out replacement with new system

 

[fearsomepirate]

That's the problem with the console-as-casual-PC model. When something goes wrong, there goes everything. You've got to send it back to the manufacturer for a couple weeks, maybe a month. When your PC breaks, just pop over to your favorite store for a new power source/HDD/whatever, and you're up and running within a day or two.