I really don’t see the problem. People with headphones get 3D audio as intended. People with just TV speakers get what Sony will come up with. And people with surround setups should be able to take advantage of those setups. We’re not asking for the stars and the moon, when X supports Atmos in games and has done so for several years.
NextGen Audio: Tempest Engine, Project Acoustics, Windows Sonic, Dolby Atmos, DTS X
- Thread starter MistaPi
- Start date
And I already outlined that it wouldn’t work. When Sony sort the TV audio the. It will.
I’m sure there must be a good reason, hopefully it won’t be too long for TV and then amps
You asked why they were spending the time to make a new system and I explained why.
Speaking of 3D sound for stereo loudspeakers, I tried Sony's own Vertical Surround Engine in HT-X8500 soundbar and it wasn't bad, one thing I remember was that simulated rear speakers were louder than fronts, so it created uneven front-rear soundscape. If they make it better with more computational power it can be usable, but I also hope that 3D sound will be optional and standard stereo mix will be available as well.
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yeah... looking forward to Sony sorting out the "TV audio" so I can enjoy 3D sound on headphones connected to the TV. ;-)
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yeah... looking forward to Sony sorting out the "TV audio" so I can enjoy 3D sound on headphones connected to the TV. ;-)
Why do you think it wouldn't work?
3d audio for headphones is literally just a stereo signal. Sending it through HDMI for headphones connected to an HDMI device (TV/receiver/optical audio extractor/etc) would work just fine.
In fact, Xbox has had exactly this option (labelled: "Using HDMI or optical audio headset") for years, and it's never caused any issues.
People without headphone? It works with the cheapest headphones available, people who don't want to use headphones.
It will work later with people with home cinema setup but it will be the inferior option because how how the human ears work.
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Deleted member 13524
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People without headphone? It works with the cheapest headphones available, people who don't want to use headphones.
Home cinema = inferior option?
Do you really believe this?
Do you know how expensive are the headphones that provide a soundstage that is even remotely similar to a stereo speaker setup, let alone a home theater one?
Home cinema will not be as good for 3d audio than heaphones you have only two ears not 4 or 6 or more. 3d audio will work well with any headphones, after sound quality is higher with better ones.
Don't confuse sound quality and 3d audio.
So Sony have released details on 3D compatibility;
https://blog.playstation.com/2020/10/06/experience-ps5s-tempest-3d-audiotech-with-compatible-headsets-at-launch-tv-virtual-surround-sound-coming-after-launch/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+PSBlog+(PlayStation.Blog)
Long story short, it seems all headphones will work via the controller and all USB 'dongle' style headphones should work.
So the question is; something like the Astro A50 which use optical (which PS5 doesn't have) - does anyone know if a USB DAC would work? I was watching someone used one to convert the audio as they bought a slim (which also doesn't have optical) - so I'm assuming it should work...just want to know so I can be confident day one
Astro A50 (current gen) also works through USB only on PS4 so... (yes I have two and I only connect them to my PS4 pro through one of the front USB ports and it works perfectly fine.)
Sorry I don't agree with that. And of course it depends on the setup. I have a total of 9 speakers plus a nice sub-woofer in my living room and sorry to say, headphones don't really compare.
Again this is physical, this is why HRTF works better with headphones. Or you never use good HRTF. Out of if you have a 360 degree speakers surrounding you and you are precisely at the center of the room, this is not comparable.
I know it is hard for people to understand than shitty 10 dollars/euros headphones are better for 3d audio than expensive Dolby audio setup but this how sound works for human. Headphones are the ultimate solution to 3d audio for games.
This is a 2006 article but no solution has been found and it is probably better to show the "problem" is known since a long time.
https://blog.codinghorror.com/3d-positional-audio-and-hrtfs/
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Soundstage is not about sound "quality" (i.e. frequency response), it's exactly about 3D audio.
In real life, when there's a sound coming from the left, you hear it with both ears. You just hear it with the left ear first and with higher amplitude (heads are good at dampening sound).
With headphones, the sound coming from the left driver never reaches the right ear, as it's never projected with enough intensity to reach the opposite ear.
This means the 3D audio system, when you're using headphones, needs to fake your head/year dampening to reproduce sounds coming from the left on the right speaker, or it'll sound fake and take away immersion.
This is what HRTF (head-related transfer function) does in a game engine, and it's usually done using standardized virtual heads that never correspond entirely to each person's head/ears. That's why Cerny mentioned taking pictures of our heads and ears to further optimize the 3D sound and customize a HRTF map for each person. However, even with pictures of our heads they still wouldn't know how the interior of our heads in arranged (e.g. bone density of the skull, geometry of the brain, etc). They'd need to place high-end microfones inside our ears and do several listening sessions to reach something like what they achieved for Cerny:
With external surround speakers, you don't need to fake sounds through HRTF. A sound coming from the left speaker is always going to reach your right ear, and with the "perfect processing" because you're listening it from a "real" source.
HRTF can still happen to emulate an exact placement of a sound source between two speakers, but with much lighter differences. Height is also something that needs HRTF on surround speakers, but not when you have height speakers (though notice how Cerny's HRTF maps aren't even considering height at all).
In summary, @London Geezer 's setup with 1 center + 2 front + 2 side + 2 back speakers + 2 height speakers + subwoofer is always going to be worlds better for 3D audio than headphones. It's not even a fair comparison. It wouldn't be a fair comparison even with 5.1 vs. headphones.
The article you referenced is comparing stereo speakers with headphones, not a full 7.1.2 setup.
Wrong because, the "endgame" of high fidelity with stationary setup is speakers and room disappearance from equation, and that's a taller order than getting wearables right.
That's a tall order too , see repeated measurements at rtings of "gamer" headphones (how placement matters) or how two channels don't match to begin with.
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Source?
I have a atmos 7.2.2 setup too and a good pair of sennheisers. If i can use the 7.2.2 setup, im not even doubting using the headphones over that. Im sure that good headphones are hard to beat, but it depends on what your comparing them to, it also depends on how its setup, environment etc.
Atleast i know what system il want to use for the PS5.
Atleast i know what system il want to use for the PS5.
Rurouni
Veteran
That is actually what is wrong with normal speaker setup. You can't isolate what should be heard on each of your ears. If I just want to simulate a sound coming from my right and then bleed to my left ear, that is what exactly hrtf should do. There are plenty example of hrtf done right that gives a really big (basically unlimited) sound stage with a lot more precision than what a speaker setup could offer. The thing that make me use speaker is sometimes I just don't want anything in/on my ears or I just want to feel the subwoofer rumble. Also it is useless in a social situation, like playing together on the same room with your friend.
Soundstage is not about sound "quality" (i.e. frequency response), it's exactly about 3D audio.
In real life, when there's a sound coming from the left, you hear it with both ears. You just hear it with the left ear first and with higher amplitude (heads are good at dampening sound).
With headphones, the sound coming from the left driver never reaches the right ear, as it's never projected with enough intensity to reach the opposite ear.
This means the 3D audio system, when you're using headphones, needs to fake your head/year dampening to reproduce sounds coming from the left on the right speaker, or it'll sound fake and take away immersion.
This is what HRTF (head-related transfer function) does in a game engine, and it's usually done using standardized virtual heads that never correspond entirely to each person's head/ears. That's why Cerny mentioned taking pictures of our heads and ears to further optimize the 3D sound and customize a HRTF map for each person. However, even with pictures of our heads they still wouldn't know how the interior of our heads in arranged (e.g. bone density of the skull, geometry of the brain, etc). They'd need to place high-end microfones inside our ears and do several listening sessions to reach something like what they achieved for Cerny:
Soundstage is not about sound "quality" (i.e. frequency response), it's exactly about 3D audio.
In real life, when there's a sound coming from the left, you hear it with both ears. You just hear it with the left ear first and with higher amplitude (heads are good at dampening sound).
With headphones, the sound coming from the left driver never reaches the right ear, as it's never projected with enough intensity to reach the opposite ear.
This means the 3D audio system, when you're using headphones, needs to fake your head/year dampening to reproduce sounds coming from the left on the right speaker, or it'll sound fake and take away immersion.
This is what HRTF (head-related transfer function) does in a game engine, and it's usually done using standardized virtual heads that never correspond entirely to each person's head/ears. That's why Cerny mentioned taking pictures of our heads and ears to further optimize the 3D sound and customize a HRTF map for each person. However, even with pictures of our heads they still wouldn't know how the interior of our heads in arranged (e.g. bone density of the skull, geometry of the brain, etc). They'd need to place high-end microfones inside our ears and do several listening sessions to reach something like what they achieved for Cerny:
With external surround speakers, you don't need to fake sounds through HRTF. A sound coming from the left speaker is always going to reach your right ear, and with the "perfect processing" because you're listening it from a "real" source.
HRTF can still happen to emulate an exact placement of a sound source between two speakers, but with much lighter differences. Height is also something that needs HRTF on surround speakers, but not when you have height speakers (though notice how Cerny's HRTF maps aren't even considering height at all).
In summary, @London Geezer 's setup with 1 center + 2 front + 2 side + 2 back speakers + 2 height speakers + subwoofer is always going to be worlds better for 3D audio than headphones. It's not even a fair comparison. It wouldn't be a fair comparison even with 5.1 vs. headphones.
The article you referenced is comparing stereo speakers with headphones, not a full 7.1.2 setup.
With external surround speakers, you don't need to fake sounds through HRTF. A sound coming from the left speaker is always going to reach your right ear, and with the "perfect processing" because you're listening it from a "real" source.
HRTF can still happen to emulate an exact placement of a sound source between two speakers, but with much lighter differences. Height is also something that needs HRTF on surround speakers, but not when you have height speakers (though notice how Cerny's HRTF maps aren't even considering height at all).
In summary, @London Geezer 's setup with 1 center + 2 front + 2 side + 2 back speakers + 2 height speakers + subwoofer is always going to be worlds better for 3D audio than headphones. It's not even a fair comparison. It wouldn't be a fair comparison even with 5.1 vs. headphones.
The article you referenced is comparing stereo speakers with headphones, not a full 7.1.2 setup.
Headphones at the end will work better if your HRTF is near one of the five profile with more profile added during the PS5 lifetime or better if Sony create a database of HRTF profile for each people. They think about it and they filed a patent for this.
As good as is the speaker room, there is a finite number of speakers
If the wall and the ground were composed of speaker, it woulb be unbeatable.
I suppose later they will goes from top and down for height for headphones and surround systems. They support only up to 7 speakers for 3d audio for the moment on Sony side.
And with headphones you will be able to simulate sound coming from below.
So, solution is to have amp to feed into headphones and sub.
Not an expert but, headphones are basically simulating directional sound more then a conventional setup does. A sound coming from the rear actually does come from the rear on a 7.2 setup, whereas with headphones thats a (good) simulation.
I assume this tempest audio will take advantage of both headphones and 7.2 setups?
I assume this tempest audio will take advantage of both headphones and 7.2 setups?
