Next-Generation NVMe SSD and I/O Technology [PC, PS5, XBSX|S]

[davis.anthony]

Again learn go read documentation, watch GDC presentation. You were not aware game engine use DEFLATE or Kraken uncompressed data into RAM.

Again PS5 footprint is not useful without a SSD you need to cache more data in RAM... This is PS4 against PS5 but it works the same with a PC without SSD and with one if a game is tailored to work from a SSD or a HDD. Returnal on PS5 was tailored to work with a SSD but porting the game to PC they decided to let people use a HDD too.

EDIT: After most people have a PC with a SATA SSD and it will probably been more than enough to play with great loading time. I don't have a gaming PC and I have a SATA SSD.

PS5 footprint is extremely useful as it will allow us to extrapolate potential RAM use on PC.

And can you evidence the bolded part or is that you guessing again?

And stop going off on a tangent, I've not spoken about DEFLATE or Kraken so stay on topic.

And you don't have a gaming PC? I figured as your console bias shows big time, just don't get too upset when the game is much improved on PC.

 

[pjbliverpool]

The question here is not whether you can get more out of current generation consoles than PCs, because more can be done with the properly used low-level API, fine-grained memory movement and the game engine built for sampler feedback streaming.

PC's support sampler feedback streaming (small s) too.

The Xbox implementation just adds a hardware component for smoothing the transition between mips when the desired mip isn't loaded in time.

It's a nice to have but not a requirement for sampler feedback streaming. It would also be required less in PC's with faster IO systems than the Xbox because they will miss the load window less often.

In addition, I believe this sort of smoothing can be done via software with an obvious additional overhead.

 

[pjbliverpool]

And you don't have a gaming PC? I figured as your console bias shows big time, just don't get too upset when the game is much improved on PC.

I'm not sure why you're interpreting his argument as console bias, what he's arguing is a positive for the PC architecture.

I.e. you don't need fast IO to match a consoles streaming performance provided you have sufficient RAM (in fact you can greatly exceed the consoles performance in that scenario).

But it goes without saying that if you do have slow IO (an HDD) then the initial load will be slower. That said, with a good streaming system from IO into RAM you can hopefully just load what you need to get the game started and will the remainder of the RAM cache in the background while playing.

 

[davis.anthony]

I'm not sure why you're interpreting his argument as console bias, what he's arguing is a positive for the PC architecture.

His previous comments (which have been edited as his points have been proven incorrect)

He's flip flopped around various points, gone off on unrelated tangents and used the argument of:

"The recommended requirement is 32GB RAM therefore the game needs 32GB RAM" ........is laughable at best.

He's added very little to any augment and does come across as someone trying to downplay I/O on PC vs console (PS5 in this case)

I'm still impressed that the game could scale down to the point where an HDD would even work...

 

[chris1515]

PS5 footprint is extremely useful as it will allow us to extrapolate potential RAM use on PC.

And can you evidence the bolded part or is that you guessing again?

And stop going off on a tangent, I've not spoken about DEFLATE or Kraken so stay on topic.

And you don't have a gaming PC? I figured as your console bias shows big time, just don't get too upset when the game is much improved on PC.

Again I add Deflate or Kraken it change nothing. You know that you need an algorithm to compress data on disk and this is the two principal algorithm use on PC and consoles. It just show you don't even understand what you are talking about. Again PS5 RAM usage isn't useful for PC version without a SSD.

Like I said before with HDD the RAM usage on PC will be totally different than PS5 and PC with a SATA or NVME SATA. And PS5 SSD bandwidth is not even interesting in this case. For the moment the game pushing the more data is R&C Rift Apart and it is only pushing 5 GB/s of uncompressed data, Demon's Soul's Remake is only 3 to 4 GB/s of uncompressed data. For Insomniac this is because the game engine is CPU limited by entity initialization limited to one thread. They told it but it is linked to bad multithreading not PS5 SSD. Like any PC fanboy you think I talk about PS5 SSD. I talk about SSD in general and I include SATA SSD.

And the more memory is used with a HDD, the less frequent will be the long loading time after a death or a portal. Did I say the PC version won't be improved? I speak about assets improvement like high res texture pack. I expect this generation to be the end of this because consoles can use 4k or 8k textures without problem like in Land of Nanite or Matrix Awakens demo.

I expect raytracing usage, better shadows, better resolution, better framerate, better texture filtering maybe better particle resolution an so on just no asset improvement like all Sony port.

 

[davis.anthony]

Again I add Deflate or Kraken it change nothing. You know that you need an algorithm to compress data on disk and this is the two principal algorithm use on PC and consoles.

Irrelvant to what we're talking about

It just show you don't even understand what you are talking about.

Says the one who claimed the game uses 32GB of RAM because it's listed in the requirements

Again PS5 RAM usage isn't useful for PC version without a SSD.

Incorrect.

Like I said before with HDD the RAM usage on PC will be totally different than PS5 and PC with a SATA or NVME SATA.

You didn't even know the game would work on a HDD until I pointed it out so what are even talking about.

And PS5 SSD bandwidth is not even interesting in this case.

I never said it was

For the moment the game pushing the more data is R&C Rift Apart

Prove it.

and it is only pushing 5 GB/s of uncompressed data,

Prove it

Demon's Soul's Remake is only 3 to 4 GB/s of uncompressed data.

Prove it

For Insomniac this is because the game engine is CPU limited by entity initialization limited to one thread.

Irrelevant and one again you're going off on an tangent.

They told it but it is linked to bad multithreading.

Again, irrelevant.

Like any PC fanboy you think I talk about PS5 SSD.

You've literally spoken about PS5's SSD in this reply.

I talk about SSD in general and I include SATA SSD.

And?

And the more memory is used with a HDD, the less frequent will be the long loading time after a death or a portal.

Depending on how the engine works and is coded.

Did I say the PC version won't be improved?

Did I say you didn't?

I speak about assets improvement like high res texture pack. I expect this generation to be the end of this because consoles can use 4k or 8k textures without problem like in Land of Nanite or Matrix Awakens demo.

Irrelevant as we're talking about Returnal on? Yet another instance of you going on a tangent.

If you're going to make wild claims either back them up with actual evidence or keep quiet.

Saying 'You don't know what you're talking abut' is not evidence and is no different to saying 'Source: Dude trust me'

 

[chris1515]

Irrelvant to what we're talking about

Says the one who claimed the game uses 32GB of RAM because it's listed in the requirements

Incorrect.

You didn't even know the game would work on a HDD until I pointed it out so what are even talking about.

I never said it was

Prove it.

Prove it

Prove it

Irrelevant and one again you're going off on an tangent.

Again, irrelevant.

You've literally spoken about PS5's SSD in this reply.

And?

Depending on how the engine works and is coded.

Did I say you didn't?

Irrelevant as we're talking about Returnal on? Yet another instance of you going on a tangent.

If you're going to make wild claims either back them up with actual evidence or keep quiet.

Saying 'You don't know what you're talking abut' is not evidence and is no different to saying 'Source: Dude trust me'

I speak about Returnal and I said it will not have asset improvement like many current gen games in the future.

You don't even make any logic. You don't give any argument don't know what you're talking not in videogame streaming or about RT. Use Google or Bing or Yahoo before talk about a subject read at least a bit about it.

 

[davis.anthony]

I speak about Returnal and I said it will not have asset improvement like many current gen games in the future.

You don't even make any logic. You don't give any argument don't know what you're talking not in videogame streaming or about RT. Use Google or Bing or Yahoo before talk about a subject read at least a bit about it.

Still waiting for you to prove and evidence your claims that.

1. Returnal is pushing more data than R&C
2. It is only pushing 5 GB/s of uncompressed data
3. Demon's Soul's Remake is only 3 to 4 GB/s of uncompressed data

Take your time and as an FYI, your word isn't 'evidence'.

 

[chris1515]

Still waiting for you to prove and evidence your claims that.

1. Returnal is pushing more data than R&C
2. It is only pushing 5 GB/s of uncompressed data
3. Demon's Soul's Remake is only 3 to 4 GB/s of uncompressed data

Take your time and as an FYI, your word isn't 'evidence'.

I said than the game than pushing the most data on PS5 is R&C not Returnal. I just said than PS5 SSD bandwidth is not relevant for Returnal or any other game currently released on the console.

What is important is latency and for sure a few GB/s is better for loading than 100/150 MB/s of a HDD.

 

[davis.anthony]

I said than the game than pushing the most data on PS5 is R&C not Returnal. I just said than PS5 SSD bandwidth is not relevant for Returnal or any other game currently released on the console.

What is important is latency and for sure a few GB/s is better for loading than 100/150 MB/s of a HDD.

Evidence that R&C is only using 5GB of uncompressed data and then explain why in testing, Digital Foundry found the game worked just as well on an NVME drive rated at 3.2GB/s (58% of PS5's own NVME drive)

And evidence Demon's Soul's Remake is only using 3 to 4 GB/s of uncompressed data.

 

[chris1515]

Evidence that R&C is only using 5GB of uncompressed data and then explain why in testing, Digital Foundry found the game worked just as well on an NVME drive rated at 3.2GB/s (58% of PS5's own NVME drive)

And evidence Demon's Soul's Remake is only using 3 to 4 GB/s of uncompressed data.

Returnal is a UE4 point game and UE4 is an OOP engine I am sure there is some bottleneck somewhere and they can't reach the PS5 full speed like the majority of the game.

The evidence of RRC Rift Apart about the 5GB of uncompressed data comes from a tweet from someone from Insomniac. Just need some time tonight to find it again. For Demon's Soul's Remake I think this is inside one of the digital foundry content. Maybe here. Need some time to find it.

And developers working with the PS5 storage API just see the speed of uncompressed data inside the performance analyser. Coming from a tweet comment from the same Insomniac programmer.

 

[davis.anthony]

Returnal is a UE4 point game and UE4 is an OOP engine I am sure there is some bottleneck somewhere and they can't reach the PS5 full speed like the majority of the game.

Irrelevant to what I asked

The evidence of RRC Rift Apart about the 5GB of uncompressed data comes from a tweet from someone from Insomniac. Just need some time tonight to find it again. For Demon's Soul's Remake I think this is inside one of the digital foundry content. Maybe here. Need some time to find it.

If the game requires 5GB of raw uncompressed data why did the game function in line with PS5 on an NVME drive that only offered 3.2GB/s of raw uncompressed data in Digital Foundry's testing?

Time stamp?

And developers working with the PS5 storage API just see the speed of uncompressed data inside the performance analyser. Coming from a tweet comment from the same Insomniac programmer.

Irrelevant to what I asked.

 

[chris1515]

Irrelevant to what I asked

If the game requires 5GB of raw uncompressed data why did the game function in line with PS5 on an NVME drive that only offered 3.2GB/s of raw uncompressed data?

Time stamp?

Irrelevant to what I asked.

At the end the speed is 5GB/S this has nothing to do with SSD speed. After decompression they reach 5GB/s of data load in RAM slower than the speed of PS5 SSD. This is how uncompressed data speed is calculated in theory is there is no other bottleneck and the decompression can keep up with the SSD. SSD speed multiply by compression ratio but they can't reach it because they have other bottleneck slowing down the loading time. In theory with a compression ratio of 2 to 1 and a SSD speed of 5.5 GB/s the PS5 SSD can reach 11 GB/s but if there is some bottleneck somewhere else they will never reach this number.

Same Demon's Soul's Remake is slower than the SSD speed at the end after decompression they reach 3 to 4 GB/ s of uncompressed data loaded in RAM. This is the final number. This is slower than the 5.5GB/s of the SSD.

When someone talk if speed and uncompressed data it means loading from the SSD or HDD and after being decompressed by the hardware and treated by the CPU and GPU. Data on storage is compressed. They didn't try to improve it on Insomniac side because they are CPU limited. If they could reach more it would not improve a lot the loading.

Because loading time impression is much more than loading the data from the SSD. people and dev consider loading to end when they can control the character. Here they were slower than 5GB/s of data loaded in memory they did some optimization but at end they could not go above this because it means a full refactoring of the CPU game code engine.

 

[davis.anthony]

At the end the speed is 5GB/S this has nothing to do with SSD speed. After decompression they reach 5GB/s of data slowest than the Speed of PS5 SSD. This is how uncompressed data speed is calculated in theory is there is no other bottleneck and the decompression can keep up with the SSD. SSD speed multiply by compression ratio but they can't reach it because they have other bottleneck slowing down the loading time.

Irrelevant.

Same Demon's Soul's Remake is slower than the SSD speed at the end after decompression they reach 3 to 4 GB/ s of uncompressed data loaded in RAM. This is slower than the 5.5GB/s of the SSD.

Please provide evidence for the "3 to 4 GB/ s of uncompressed data loaded in RAM"

When someone talk if speed and uncompressed data it means loading from the SSD and after being decompressed by the hardware and treated by the CPU and GPU. They didn't try to improve it on Insomniac side because they are CPU limited. If they could reach more it would not improve a lot the loading.

Irrelevant.

Because loading time impression is much more than loading the data from the SSD. people and dev consider loading to end when they can control the character.

Irrelevant.

 

[chris1515]

Irrelevant.

Please provide evidence for the "3 to 4 GB/ s of uncompressed data loaded in RAM"

Irrelevant.

Irrelevant.

This is not irrelevant this is about the subject.

You have three components SSD speed, compression ratio and at the end realworld loading speed of the game. The realworld speed for R&C Rift Apart is 5GB/s and 3 to 4 GB/s for Demon's Soul's. And this is the important number not the PS5 SSD speed or the compression ratio.

It explain very well why a 3.2 GB/s can run Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart very well. This is not incompatible at all if you at least understand how it works. I would say this is logic.

From the moment I said they load 5GB/s of data into RAM after decompression, this is very easy to understand they don't need PS5 SSD speed for running Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart.

 

[chris1515]

@davis.anthony I will give you a very easy exercise if compression ratio of R&C Rift Apart is 1.6 and after decompression in RAM they reach 5 GB/s of data what is the minimum speed of the SSD to reach it.

 

[davis.anthony]

This is not irrelevant this is about the subject.

Irrelevant

You have three components SSD speed, compression ratio and at the end realworld loading speed of the game.

Irrelevant

The realworld speed for R&C Rift Apart is 5GB/s

Prove it

and 3 to 4 GB/s for Demon's Soul's.

Still waiting on proof

And this is the important number not the PS5 SSD speed or the compression ratio.

Irrelevant

It explain very well why a 3.2 GB/s can run Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart very well. This is not incompatible at all if you at least understand how it works. I would say this is logic.

Irrelevant

From the moment I said they load 5GB/s of data into RAM after decompression, this is very easy to understand they don't need PS5 SSD speed for running Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart.

Irrelevant

 

[chris1515]

Irrelevant

Irrelevant

Prove it

Still waiting on proof

Irrelevant

Irrelevant

Irrelevant

Answer the question this is very easy to understand. I will find the proof when I will have time. And it will show if you understand something.

 

[davis.anthony]

Answer the question this is very easy to understand.

Irrelevant

I will find the proof when I will have time.

You've had the time to go back and forth with me most of the day but not the time to find this 'proof' you speak of?

Funny that.

And it will show if you understand something.

Irrelevant.

 

[chris1515]

Irrelevant

You've had the time to go back and forth with me most of the day but not the time to find this 'proof' you speak of?

Funny that.

Irrelevant.

It will take me much more time because I need to go to last year and find into B3D thread where the answer is hiding. The tweet was made after the Digitalfoundry article about loading R&C with a 3.2 GB/s SSD it gives me an idea where I need to search but this is reading tons of pages of the forum but I will find it.

It shows you understand nothing. 5 divided by 1.6 equals 3.125. It means for loading R&C Rift Apart at the same speed a 3.125 GB/s SSD is needed. It explains perfectly why a 3.2 GB/s SSD can load R&C Rift Apart. I never said R&C Rift Apart need the PS5 SSD to run well.