Next-Generation NVMe SSD and I/O Technology [PC, PS5, XBSX|S]

[chris1515]

Games require 'X' memory on load time, this won't change if a user suddenly doubles system RAM or upgrades to a GPU that has more VRAM.

We also don't know what improvements or changes they've made to the game, art or assets to even begin talking about their recommended specs for the game.

In Returnal you have portals to go to another place. They will load in memory more stuff to be have things behind a portal in memory. The problem of the specification of Returnal isn't the RAM but the storage recommendation. It is not mandatory in the two case but recommended with 16 GB of RAM and no recommendation with 32 GB of RAM. It means a HDD is ok with 32 GB of RAM. It means fill as much as possible the RAM to have the maximum of things in memory.

You think they change the asset of the game? I think you will be disappointed...

EDIT: Returnal is a rogue like where you die a lot, fast loading time is a killer feature. It is one of the best thing of Demon's soul's Remake come back fast to the game after dying.

 

[davis.anthony]

In Returnal you have portals to go to another place. They will load in memory more stuff to be have things behind a portal in memory. The problem of the specification of Returnal isn't the RAM but the storage recommendation. It is not mandatory in the two case but recommended with 16 GB of RAM and no recommendation with 32 GB of RAM. It means a HDD is ok with 32 GB of RAM. It means fill as much as possible the RAM to have the maximum of things in memory.

You think they change the asset of the game? I think you will be disappointed...

I have played Returnal so know about it's loading.

Can you exaplain why 16GB RAM and a SATA III SSD at 550MB/s is enough to match PS5's 16GB RAM and 5.5GB/s NVME drive?

They also state that with 16GB of RAM an SSD is recommended, not essential which debunks your whole point.

Has there been a single recent Sony port that didn't offer enhancements over the PS version?

 

[chris1515]

I have played Returnal so know about it's loading.

Can you exaplain why 16GB RAM and a SATA III SSD at 550MB/s is enough to match PS5's 16GB RAM and 5.5GB/s NVME drive?

They also state that with 16GB of RAM an SSD is recommended, not essential.

Has there been a single recent Sony port that didn't offer enhancements over the PS version?

I don't think there is any PS5 Sony port with asset improvement. The word is very important better raytracing is not asset improvement for example, better texture filtering is not asset improvement. This is a UE 4 game they will probably use some raytracing, draw distance will be higher maybe better LOD management. Again this is not mandatory. Wait 25 second or more after each death if the player have a HDD is not the end of the world. But it is annoying and having faster loading in a game where you die a lot is a killer feature.

 

[davis.anthony]

I don't think there is any PS5 Sony port with asset improvement. This is a UE 4 game they will probably use some raytracing, draw distance will be higher maybe better LOD management. Again this is not mandatory. Wait 25 second or more after each death if the player have a HDD is not the end of the world. But it is annoying and having faster loading in a game where you die a lot is a killer feature.

How about you wait for the game to release rather then guessing.

 

[Remij]

And you forget one disadvantage of having more RAM it takes longer to fill it. The advantage to have less RAM and a faster storage with Direct Storage it means faster loading time.

That's not a disadvantage. That's a correlation. You could still just as quickly load 13GB of data into a RAM pool that's 32GB, as you could 16GB.

 

[PSman1700]

That's not a disadvantage. That's a correlation. You could still just as quickly load 13GB of data into a RAM pool that's 32GB, as you could 16GB.

Its indeed not a disadvantage if the rest scales along with the amount of memory. More memory to fill but also higher raw speeds to fill that memory with.

 

[chris1515]

How about you wait for the game to release rather then guessing.

I take the bet the game will load slower with a HDD than with a SSD on PC with 16 GB and I take the bet loading time will be around 20 to 30 seconds with a HDD with 16 GB of RAM. And it is an easy one.

 

[Remij]

Its indeed not a disadvantage if the rest scales along with the amount of memory. More memory to fill but also higher raw speeds to fill that memory with.

It's not a disadvantage in any way, assuming the bandwidth is the same.

If I have 2 beakers with water pouring into them at the same rate, there's no disadvantage to having the beaker that can hold more water.. there's only an advantage. The smaller beaker doesn't fill up quicker. They fill up at the same rate, and the water stops when the smaller beaker is filled. That leaves only an advantage to the bigger beaker.. if you required more water.

 

[chris1515]

It's not a disadvantage in any way, assuming the bandwidth is the same.

If I have 2 beakers with water pouring into them at the same rate, there's no disadvantage to having the beaker that can hold more water.. there's only an advantage. The smaller beaker doesn't fill up quicker. They fill up at the same rate, and the water stops when the smaller beaker is filled. That leaves only an advantage to the bigger beaker.. if you required more water.

Again this is not the debate this is basically HDD plus more RAM against SSD with less RAM. And we can exclude the console.

 

[chris1515]

With console being able to use 8k texture if the engine use virtual texturing. I think assets improvement with high res texture pack will stop in the future. We won't see 8k textures in game but 4k textures because of the size of asset on storage but the problem is the same.

 

[davis.anthony]

Again this is not the debate this is basically HDD plus more RAM against SSD with less RAM. And we can exclude the console.

There is no debate, you're guessing and chatting wobble over an unreleased game and flip flopping your point.

The sheer fact the game can *work* on an HDD itself is remarkable considering it's a game that supposedly needs an SSD.

Shows that its streaming requirements can't actually be that high.

 

[Remij]

Again this is not the debate this is basically HDD plus more RAM against SSD with less RAM. And we can exclude the console.

I still wouldn't call that a disadvantage of having more RAM.. like you said. It's a disadvantage of having an HDD.

But as you write it here... yes, of course I'd agree with you. I'd take 16GB of RAM connected to a 5.5GB/s SSD over 32GB of RAM connected to an HDD any day of the week.

 

[chris1515]

There is no debate, you're guessing and chatting wobble over an unreleased game and flip flopping your point.

The sheer fact the game can *work* on an HDD itself is remarkable considering it's a game that needs an SSD.

Shows that its streaming requirements can't actually be that high.

Any game can run on a PC with more RAM and a HDD, Returnal is 56 GB of data compressed on disk we will say it is around 1.5 compression ratio rate. it means the full game can be contained in 84 GB of RAM. It means 38% of the game is on RAM with 32 GB or RAM. With 16 GB of RAM, this is only 19% and it means higher loading time each time the data you need is not inside RAM.

Where did I talk about streaming? I speak about loading time and portal.

 

[chris1515]

I still wouldn't call that a disadvantage of having more RAM.. like you said. It's a disadvantage of having an HDD.

But as you write it here... yes, of course I'd agree with you. I'd take 16GB of RAM connected to a 5.5GB/s SSD over 32GB of RAM connected to an HDD any day of the week.

I would take 16 GB of RAM connected to a SATA SSD or any NVME SSD any day of the week too, it works particularly for a roguelike. If the PC have 128 GB of RAM and the game is optimized to load as much as possible data into it a debate is possible.

 

[davis.anthony]

Any game can run on a PC with more RAM and a HDD

False, streaming requirements exist.

Returnal is 56 GB of data compressed on disk we will say it is around 1.5 compression ratio rate. it means the full game can be contained in 84 GB of RAM.

Why does it have to stored in RAM in an uncompressed state?

It means 38% of the game is on RAM with 32 GB or RAM. With 16 GB of RAM, this is only 19% and it means higher loading time each time the data you need is not inside RAM.

Why are you you assuming the game actually uses 32GB of RAM?

Where did I talk about streaming? I speak about loading time.

Where did I say you spoke about streaming?

 

[chris1515]

False, streaming requirements exist.

Why does it have to stored in RAM in an uncompressed state?

Why are you you assuming the game actually uses 32GB of RAM?


Where did I say you spoke about streaming?

If a game is optimized for it you could load the full game in memory with an HDD. And it could work for all game out of COD with a PC with 256 GB of RAM. Devs will try to keep game shippable on one BR disc and with a ratio of 2:1 it means uncompressed game is "only" 200 GB. Streaming is not a problem after this because everything is in RAM after an unique but long load time. If a dev decide it any game needing a SSD can run with a HDD, just need to have enough RAM on a PC.

Data in RAM is uncompressed out of the buffer where they are decompressed. For being usable by the CPU and GPU, this is how it works in videogame.

Because this is how it works when there is a HDD in a machine a PC or a console and if it was not the case they would not ask 32 GB of RAM but 16 GB or 24 GB. If the game is optimized for this they will load the maximum of data in RAM for having the maximum of chance to never have to load any data when you die. They will be clever and keep some data if they know they need it after each death.

 

[davis.anthony]

If a game is optimized for it you could load the full game in memory with an HDD. And it could work for all game out of COD with a PC with 256 GB of RAM.

Now you're changing it to suit your agenda again.

If you're going to load the whole game from RAM we might as well use a Micro SD card.

Devs will try to keep game shippable on one BR disc and with a ratio of 2:1 it means uncompressed game is "only" 200 GB.

And yet we've had game disks with only a few hundred MB's and the whole game is downloaded.

Streaming is not a problem after this because everything is in RAM after an unique but long load time.

False as it's not that simple

If a dev decide it any game needing a SSD can run with a HDD, just need to have enough RAM on a PC.

False as it's not that simple

Data in RAM is uncompressed out of the buffer where they are decompressed.

It doesn't have to be decompressed.

For being usable by the CPU and GPU, this is how it works in videogame.

No shit Sherlock

Because this is how it works when there is a HDD in a machine

False as it's not that simple

and if it was not the case they would not ask 32 GB of RAM but 16 GB or 24 GB.

RAM kits on PC are sold as multiples, if the game needs 20GB RAM what are they going to put on the recommended settings?

Required RAM: 16GB + single 4GB stick

The next multiple from 16 in PC RAM kits is 32, that is why they say 32GB.

Interesting fact, Spiderman actually lists 32GB RAM for the highest settings at 4k.......guess what.....worked fine with only 16GB on my very own rig.

If the game is optimized for this they will load the maximum of data in RAM for having the maximum of chance to never have to load any data when you die.

Do you have the memory footprint the game uses on PS5 to know how much they would need to keep in RAM on PC?

If you don't have that info I would stop talking about this point.

They will be clever and keep some data if they know they need it after each death.

Just like pretty much every other game does.

 

[chris1515]

Now you're changing it to suit your agenda again.

If you're going to load the whole game from RAM we might as well use a Micro SD card.

And yet we've had game disks with only a few hundred MB's and the whole game is downloaded.

False as it's not that simple

False as it's not that simple

It doesn't have to be decompressed.

No shit Sherlock

False as it's not that simple

RAM kits on PC are sold as multiples, if the game needs 20GB RAM what are they going to put on the recommended settings?

Required RAM: 16GB + single 4GB stick

The next multiple from 16 in PC RAM kits is 32, that is why they say 32GB.

Interesting fact, Spiderman actually lists 32GB RAM for the highest settings at 4k.......guess what.....worked fine with only 16GB on my very own rig.

Do you have the memory footprint the game uses on PS5 to know how much they would need to keep in RAM on PC?

If you don't have that info I would stop talking about this point.

Just like pretty much every other game does.

It doesn't have to be decompressed. I think you need to learn a bit better how streaming work on and how RAM work in videogames.

DSTORAGE_STAGING_BUFFER_SIZE - Microsoft Game Development Kit

Valid staging buffer sizes.

learn.microsoft.com

They talk about the buffer in Direct Storage but this is the same without it. I don't have time to do it now but I can find RAM usage give by some dev at GDC and you will see than RAM used decompressed asset out of a buffer used to decompress it. The compression is there to save storage place after there is some form of compression in memory call BCn texture format for example but it is readable by the GPU.

The staging buffer temporarily stores content loaded from the storage device before it is decrypted or decompressed. If only memory-sourced queues are used, the size of the staging buffer can be zero.

Again answer without giving any explanation look you don't understand what you are talking about. If a dev decide to support it any games can work from a HDD and enough RAM. I give 256 GB example as the maximum you need for any future game to fit inside RAM of a PC out of COD. After it is not supported by the game then this is the dev decision and it is a sane one there is probably much more PC with a NVME SSD than with 256 GB of RAM.

The PS5 footprint is not useful because it is taking into account the SSD at the end if they want people with an HDD to be able to have the better experience possible they will load the maximum of data in RAM maybe it will be less than 32 GB any number above 16 GB and lower than 32 GB but at the end if means longer loading time in this case than if it was 32 GB.

 

[davis.anthony]

I think you need to learn a bit better how streaming work on and how RAM work in videogames.

Look you don't understand what you are talking about.

The sheer irony in those comments.

And the PS5 footprint is very useful

 

[chris1515]

The sheer irony in those comments.

And the PS5 footprint is very useful

Again learn go read documentation, watch GDC presentation. You were not aware game engine use DEFLATE or Kraken uncompressed data into RAM.

Again PS5 footprint is not useful without a SSD you need to cache more data in RAM... This is PS4 against PS5 but it works the same with a PC without SSD and with one if a game is tailored to work from a SSD or a HDD. Returnal on PS5 was tailored to work with a SSD but porting the game to PC they decided to let people use a HDD too.

EDIT: After most people have a PC with a SATA SSD and it will probably been more than enough to play with great loading time. I don't have a gaming PC and I have a SATA SSD.