Next Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [pre E3 2019]

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by TheAlSpark, Dec 31, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. HBRU

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2017
    Messages:
    430
    Likes Received:
    47
    The use of cards makes sense also in the view of a portable all solid state PS5... Probably games can be sold on premium expensive, fast cards and cheap slow budget others... I see many games are already sold in two/three versions.... Anyway what makes the loading fast can only be some sort of RAM buffering.... What else ?!?
     
  2. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    41,054
    Likes Received:
    11,671
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    Next gen in the console forum means next (full) iteration of console hardware. PC hardware and APIs are constantly evolving and don't come in generations per se; you've something new every year or two in that space.
     
    MBTP likes this.
  3. Xbat

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Messages:
    866
    Likes Received:
    495
    Location:
    A farm in the middle of nowhere
    No chance of a cart type delivery system in my opinion. Just to expensive. For me the question is mechanical and flash or just flash for storage.
     
    MBTP, milk and temesgen like this.
  4. anexanhume

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,557
    Likes Received:
    741
    Carts are the antithesis of the digital movement publishers are pushing, and SSDs are here to obviate the need for them in the first place.
     
    milk and temesgen like this.
  5. Jay

    Jay
    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2013
    Messages:
    2,010
    Likes Received:
    1,134
    I see Stadia much like Scarlett/xcloud implementation, won't be changing every year or so, maybe mid gen upgrade. Which could be 3 years.
    Basically console in the cloud, not PC.

    So comparing how it may do RTRT with local based consoles, dev leaks, performance, implementation, felt applicable.
    If it takes off, it could be the base console spec for multiplats in regards to gpu, cpu spec.

    Is it a remote console or remote pc type of model will be interesting as I never thought of possibility as PC model prior to you saying it.
    So I'll shut up :smile2:
     
  6. BRiT

    BRiT (╯°□°)╯
    Moderator Legend Alpha

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    12,831
    Likes Received:
    9,191
    Location:
    Cleveland
  7. Scott_Arm

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2004
    Messages:
    13,332
    Likes Received:
    3,824
    I really can't see it being two stage. It goes against the statements they've made and how they're starting to market the ps5. The hardware can only be as fast as the weakest link. If you're caching from a slow drive to a fast one, there will always be times when you are waiting. I don't see any way around that. If you want to play a game that isn't cached yet, you wait. The time it takes to copy a 60+GB game from a slow disc to a fast one is non trivial.

    If they have a custom interface, io controller for their ssd, I wouldn't be surprised to see external storage or internal storage come as an official Playstation accessory. You'll still be able to upgrade, just limited to an official expansion drive, not the drive of your choosing. If the drive is as fast as advertised, I think people would accept that concession.
     
  8. BRiT

    BRiT (╯°□°)╯
    Moderator Legend Alpha

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    12,831
    Likes Received:
    9,191
    Location:
    Cleveland
    Sony's fast start technology has a game able to boot up and play with just a few Gigs or less. That wont take long at all to cache.

    Why the insistence on needing all 60+ Gigs?
     
    Prophecy2k, MBTP, KeanuReeves and 3 others like this.
  9. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    5,528
    Likes Received:
    4,049
    It works only for starting a new game, like the first 30min of gameplay. If you want to continue a saved game it needs to install the rest. Specially open world games which have the whole map unlocked.

    If it has enough space for the last 3 or 4 games it's a manageable rotation.
     
    #1989 MrFox, May 9, 2019
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
    BRiT and Scott_Arm like this.
  10. OCASM

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2016
    Messages:
    922
    Likes Received:
    881
    PS2 was released after the 90's! :lol:
     
    milk, Pixel and Picao84 like this.
  11. Xbat

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Messages:
    866
    Likes Received:
    495
    Location:
    A farm in the middle of nowhere
    Yup that's the way I see it too. I think it will have a TB of storage.
     
  12. London-boy

    London-boy Shifty's daddy
    Legend Subscriber

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2002
    Messages:
    21,519
    Likes Received:
    5,168
    That whole decade is a big blur :runaway:
     
    OCASM and Pixel like this.
  13. Shortbread

    Shortbread Island Hopper
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2013
    Messages:
    3,902
    Likes Received:
    2,030
    I think Sony may have come-up with a way of virtualizing installed games into a VM or container. If the software stack is some sort of virtual game image management, this would allow for faster game startups and transitioning. In a sense, the game VM/container doesn't need to cold-boot like a traditional game (similar to a standalone OS / PC booting up), but more so a click to run a instantaneous game-VM that's already provisioned with all the necessary hardware configurations (similar to a PC VM). By having an ultra-fast SSD just improves this method.

    This is just a possibility from a PC-guy who runs a lot of virtual apps (that's instantaneous) within our business environment.
     
    MBTP, BoardBonobo, BRiT and 1 other person like this.
  14. Laniakea

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2019
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    83
    A return of cartridges would be cool. If they were not so crazy expensive (compared to SSDs and especially compared to BluRays) then a cartridge based on Optane DIMMs would allow interesting designs. Consoles could then only have a small very high performance memory for stuff that requires those specs plus a small SSD dedicated to the OS.

    Games would be on cartridges with similiar characteristics as Optane DIMMs (only 3 times slower latency and competitive bandwidth to DRAM) and would not only serve as storage for the game data but as the main memory for the game as well. If a game developer has the need for excessive amounts of main memory they can just use a bigger cartridge to get it. Basically a console update on a game by game basis.

    Sorry for the totaly unrealistic power fantasy but I like cartridges.

    s066.gif
    Yes, I can't agree more, and for me the same is true (to a lesser extent) when it comes to the CPU.

    Currently games are designed with a 5400-7200 rpm HDD as the baseline in mind so we can't really see the full potential our SSDs could have. The jump from HDD to SATA SSD is nice but from SATA to NVMe it's barely noticeable even though the latency should be around 3 times better and peak read/write performance 6-7 times depending on the drive.

    Considering that NVMe SSDs have 30 to 100 times sequential peak read and write speeds, much better random write/read performance and 70-150 times better latency compared to HDDs I'm really curios to see what devs come up with once NVMe SSDs are the new baseline.

    If we take the increase we usualy had with new console generations (16 times+ more FLOPs, RAM amount etc.) then the SSD is the only part this time around that can be considered next gen. :D
     
    MBTP and Heinrich4 like this.
  15. function

    function None functional
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2003
    Messages:
    5,141
    Likes Received:
    2,256
    Location:
    Wrong thread
    Apologies if this has already been linked to (double so if I got it from here), but thought this GDDR6 pricing thing from early this year was interesting.

    https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/gddr6-significantly-more-expensive-than-gddr5.html

    Depending on how fast GDDR6 prices come down, a GDDR5 base machine (e.g. 'Lockhart') might benefit from a saving of several tens of dollars on BOM. If you're going with a two tier system, you really want that base system to be as cheap as possible.

    X1X has 6TF of GPU and 320 GB/s, PS4 Pro has 4.2TF and 224 GB/s. A 4TF Lockhart with 256 GB/s, improved BW efficiency from being a generation on, and the kind of memory controller optimisations MS specified for X1X (more channels, more banks, lower latency) might make 256 GB/s a very workable bandwidth even with a faster CPU.
     
    pharma and iroboto like this.
  16. temesgen

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,543
    Likes Received:
    335
    Exactly, we're getting rid of slow Blu Ray disk but you can buy a fast card or a slower version... Nevermind games today have frequent updates and patches.

    Edit: nevermind the need to swap out carts, this isn't happening
     
    #1996 temesgen, May 9, 2019
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
  17. Vega86

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2018
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    5
    What do you think the general target resolution of a next gen 4 TF base console?

    native 1080p
    1440p
    CB 2K
    CB 4K
    ?

    I think if they push 4K for the 4TF base unit, the games would only look slighly better than current gen except the load times and lod are much, much better and able to hit 60 FPS unless maybe they target 1080p. I guess the extra ram could help with better AI and more stuff on screen but limited to the quality of a 4TF machine.

    It feels like games right now are designed more with the PS4 as the base with Xbox One having worse performance and resolution.

    If the 4TF machine has the grunt of a little more than 3 PS4s with far better RAM, CPU and SSD and target 1080p/1440p, I guess a generational leap can still feel substantial but I do wonder how much we'd be missing out if the base consoles are much closer to about the performance of current gen 12 TF and target CB 4K.
     
  18. BRiT

    BRiT (╯°□°)╯
    Moderator Legend Alpha

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    12,831
    Likes Received:
    9,191
    Location:
    Cleveland
    Zen3 with 3way SMT discussion is in the Rumor thread since AMD hasn't even talked about that yet and the rumor monger is questionable.
     
  19. see colon

    see colon All Ham & No Potatos
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,482
    Likes Received:
    254
    I really hope one of these consoles includes some form of physics acceleration. I've been playing some older PC games lately with PhysX support, and while they look a bit dated asset wise, the physics still look beyond anything I've seen on console. If both systems are using AMD, PhysX would obviously be out of the question, but it's been 2 years since Microsoft announced DirectPhysics, and as far as I know there has been no software that uses it, at least not in any form that's close to the showcases from 10 year old PhysX titles.
     
    OCASM likes this.
  20. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    41,054
    Likes Received:
    11,671
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    PhysX was a great fit for GPUs, making the PhysX accelerator redundant and why it was dropped. I think the main problem was it was accelerator/nVidia exclusive making it not worth devs time to optimise for.
     
    OCASM likes this.
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...