Next Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [2018]

[McHuj]

It's possible (it's been done forever as "hybrid crossfire") but you'd lose some synergies of having the CPU and GPU on same die, unless you build a really expensive and fat cache coherent bus between the two (and even then latencies would be higher)

Right. I think the biggest issue would be the bus between the two chips.

Maybe they could do something like an APU with 1-2 CU's dedicated for compute tasks plus a full GPU so the full GPU isn't used for compute tasks. But I'm not sure that makes sense, just add CPU mores.

If there were dedicated chips for CPU and GPU, I think you could get more bang for the buck per chip, but the rest of the system would become more complex and expensive. I really think this would be driven my how expensive 7nm will be.

 

[Bondrewd]

Right, I get that 7nm Vega is a professional market GPU but does that affect the scaling figures significantly i.e. from ~35% to ~70%?

It uses N7 HPC (relaxed CPP, 7.5T libs and larger wires), which is considerably less dense than N7 SoC.
It's all in vacuum anyway.

 

[anexanhume]

It uses N7 HPC (relaxed CPP, 7.5T libs and larger wires), which is considerably less dense than N7 SoC.
It's all in vacuum anyway.

It may give us a proxy with the added circuitry allowing a SP growth factor from Vega to Navi.

 

[megre]

you'd lose some synergies of having the CPU and GPU on same die

I see, so it's disadvantageous compared to an APU. How about compared to a pure CPU and GPU set-up?

Which would be a better set-up in terms of pure graphics fidelity?
CPU 100mm + GPU 300mm
APU 200mm + GPU 200mm

Which one would also be less expensive to produce?

 

[BRiT]

How do you mean "less expensive to produce"? Are you talking price to TSMC, or price to AMD or price to the console creators like Sony or Microsoft? What node tech are you talking about?

 

[megre]

How do you mean "less expensive to produce"? Are you talking price to TSMC, or price to AMD or price to the console creators like Sony or Microsoft? What node tech are you talking about?

Price to console creators at TSMC 7nm. Let me add another option though.
350mm+ APU
100mm CPU + 300 GPU
200mm APU + 200 GPU

 

[bitsandbytes]

It uses N7 HPC (relaxed CPP, 7.5T libs and larger wires), which is considerably less dense than N7 SoC.
It's all in vacuum anyway.

Like I say the maths does go over my head but my "logic" is that the CLN16FF+ > CLN7FF 70% area reduction anexanhume mentioned is correct at the same transistor count but I expect the next-gen console SoCs to at least double that count from ~5 billion > ~10 billion+ compared to the current consoles.

The above would then mean a ~35% area reduction as I said? I know there are other differences and things to take into account with N7 but as a rough ballpark figure, it won't too far wrong?

Where I get confused is say by the slim consoles. They are the same transistor count and just a simple optical shrink. I assume the area reduction claim from TSMC going from 28nm > 16nmFF+ is also ~70% for a simple shrink yet the One S was 'only' ~34% (363mm^2 > 240mm^2) Can anyone explain the ~70% theory versus the ~35% reality if its not what I think above?

 

[Michellstar]

My guess without being an expert whatsoever, When a foundry claims whatever % at area reduction it´s in an ideal scaling with the simpler structures (sram cells i believe), a complex APU like Durango or Orbis have many different areas with different properties, primarily the cpu, gpu and memory controllers, also there is the arrangement inside the apu, depending on the placement you could end up with a lot of empty space inside the apu with no logic at all.

So, it´s not realistic to expect the figures touted by the foundries from 16 to 7nm

 

[anexanhume]

My guess without being an expert whatsoever, When a foundry claims whatever % at area reduction it´s in an ideal scaling with the simpler structures (sram cells i believe), a complex APU like Durango or Orbis have many different areas with different properties, primarily the cpu, gpu and memory controllers, also there is the arrangement inside the apu, depending on the placement you could end up with a lot of empty space inside the apu with no logic at all.

So, it´s not realistic to expect the figures touted by the foundries from 16 to 7nm

Yup. It also depends on level of effort in layout optimization.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

If you port an existing chip to a new process you'll rarely get an optimum scaling factor. Console chip probably has memory controller and possibly a cooling element to consider as well. When you have a new chip and all its features designed from the ground up to the new process, the transistor density tends to be quite a bit better.

 

[Magnum_Force]

Dr Evil beat me too it, a chip designed ground up for a certain fab node/process will be more efficient by design. It's why shrinks or even backporting designs (if a node isn't ready in time) is more involved than one would think. Highly synthesised help somewhat.

 

[Entropy]

I assume the area reduction claim from TSMC going from 28nm > 16nmFF+ is also ~70% for a simple shrink yet the One S was 'only' ~34% (363mm^2 > 240mm^2) Can anyone explain the ~70% theory versus the ~35% reality if its not what I think above?

Your assumption is incorrect, you are a victim of creative node naming. TSMC 16nm FF is roughly the same density as their 20nm planar process. (They kept the same BEOL while changing the transistor structure, improving electrical performance significantly, but density very little.)
And as others have mentioned, designs don’t transfer ideally, I/O doesn’t scale down very much, so the less than awesome density improvements of the 16nm versions aren’t surprising. The power draw improvements and savings associated with those tell the story better.

 

[Skaal]

i just had a very funny Thought. We know that Microsoft included the PC Market in the Xbox Family. What IF Sony not only would make the PS5 back compatible to PS4\3 but also make the PS5 a full fledged PC with a Windows Games compatible OS - Imagine what a backstab to Xbox that would be - you could actually also play the Xbox Exclusives ..lol

Btw - is the Idea that crazy ?! We saw that the PS4 is capable of using a linux OS - and the Hackers even got linux running and even some steam games... So i guess if Sony realy wanted it for the PS5 it would be possible right?

Muhaha imagine - the lets say e3 2020 - Microsoft Press Conference is over and Sony starts their show with Forza 8 running on PS5 lol!

 

[BRiT]

Don't hold your breath.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

If that were to happen, I'm pretty sure MS would be happy to sell Sony millions of copies of Windows as well as get additional revenue from their software franchises. Forza on PS5 in such a scenario still means all the proceeds go to MS in that scenario without MS having to pay Sony any royalties for their game being on the PS5.

Somehow I doubt Sony would want that to happen. Console hardware makers live and die by their software royalties. And in such a scenario as Windows on PS5, Sony get no royalties from games sold on Windows.

Regards,
SB

 

[Shifty Geezer]

i just had a very funny Thought. We know that Microsoft included the PC Market in the Xbox Family. What IF Sony not only would make the PS5 back compatible to PS4\3 but also make the PS5 a full fledged PC with a Windows Games compatible OS - Imagine what a backstab to Xbox that would be - you could actually also play the Xbox Exclusives ..lol

MS would be over the moon. They never wanted to get into this game anyway. They had Windows CE on Sega, and tried to get Windows on Nintendo and Sony but they weren't having it, which is why they built their own box. XBox on PlayStation would massively increase MS's potential market and with the advantages of Play Anywhere, you'd be rather daft to buy a game on PSN that can only be played on PS versus buying the same game on XB and also being able to play it on all your Windows devices.

Btw - is the Idea that crazy ?! We saw that the PS4 is capable of using a linux OS - and the Hackers even got linux running and even some steam games... So i guess if Sony realy wanted it for the PS5 it would be possible right?

Yes. Yes, it is possible, and yes, it is crazy.

 

[mrcorbo]

i just had a very funny Thought. We know that Microsoft included the PC Market in the Xbox Family. What IF Sony not only would make the PS5 back compatible to PS4\3 but also make the PS5 a full fledged PC with a Windows Games compatible OS - Imagine what a backstab to Xbox that would be - you could actually also play the Xbox Exclusives ..lol

Btw - is the Idea that crazy ?! We saw that the PS4 is capable of using a linux OS - and the Hackers even got linux running and even some steam games... So i guess if Sony realy wanted it for the PS5 it would be possible right?

Muhaha imagine - the lets say e3 2020 - Microsoft Press Conference is over and Sony starts their show with Forza 8 running on PS5 lol!

Yeah, like others are saying opening up the PS5 to running games from other platforms is a win for consumers and a win for those other platforms. For Sony? Not so much.

 

[Tkumpathenurple]

How about Linux? For a little while anyway...

 

[Mobius1aic]

Wow I didn't know Linux was running on PS4 now. Gotta love hackers

Too bad running serious games is just about useless though. Might as well just stick to the PS4 versions.

 

[iroboto]

So...
Alexa and Cortana can now launch and control your xbox with voice commands.
I know some people on this forum are happy to see some of that kinect functionality return
@BRiT @AzBat

Neat to see, these are features nice to see included now than waiting for next gen to appear.