Next generation graphics engine

[Tahir2]

JavaJones

Thats tasty!!!! But for that to become to the minimus spec I think we are looking at mmm... 3 years?

Unless of course you don't mind paying $1000 a peice for the game.. hehe... someone developing something like that now would still need to sell about 5000 copies of the game at a $1000 a peice!

Still we are nothing but the stuff of dreams...so lets carry on dreaming :smile:

 

[darkblu]

MfA wrote:

One more feature Id like to see, take gamma correction out of textures and put it where it belongs.

Humus wrote:

Exactly what do you mean by that? Gamma correction is applied on the RAMDAC.

MfA replied:

Thats where it belongs, but not where everyone puts it (ie. they use identity for "gamma correction", and adapt their textures and lighting equation to fudge over the fact that you are no longer doing lighting in a linear color space).

gamma-correct shading & blending is a whole can of worms, DAC gamma-ramps don't quite solve the problem. here's what Jay Stelly of valve had to say once on the GameDev mailing list:

These [RAMDAC gamma adjustment] functions are mostly useless in this sense because a linear framebuffer does not have enough precision on any currently available hardware (8 bits/channel) to produce good results. These tables in the DAC are for slight adjustments to the gamma curve (gamma 2.2 --> gamma 2.4), not turning linear into gamma 2.2

IOW, although there's much to be desired regarding (texture) gamma-correctnes of most present games, it takes more than a DAC adjustment (read: sufficiently-higher precision or FP frame buffer) to grant your wish, Marco :smile:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: darkblu on 2002-02-20 11:14 ]</font>

 

[borzwazie]

The problem with Red Faction wasn't that Geomod wasn't cool, or impressive. It certainly was an impressive graphical feat. I thought it was the coolest thing I'd seen since dynamic lighting.

The problem was that it barely lent anything to the gameplay at all. You barely used Geomod at all during the game. Understandable, since level design in a game with deformable geometry has to be a difficult venture. It's too bad that Volition didn't get the chance to spend more time polishing that game.

I think that deformable geometry, properly applied to gameplay would have a tremendous affect on realism, and a great thing to have in an engine. So, you can add this one to my list :smile: But remember, like any technology, it is the application of a technology in association with gameplay, not technology as an end.

Gameplay gameplay gameplay! Repeat after me, technology is NOTHING without gameplay to utilize it.

 

[MfA]

Darkblu : Ill believe him then ... not because of the arguements, which are only usefull to satisfy the intellect after experimentation gave the true answer, but because he probably tried it out and Im too lazy to do it

Assuming they are using high precision DAC's these day's (although when it gets to that point, dithering could do the job too) and the loss is because of the non-linear response of our eye's thats still only about 4 bits you loose max (only for the very lowest part of the ramp, on average its a lot less) so hardware doesnt need to improve that much.

Marco

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MfA on 2002-02-20 17:39 ]</font>

 

[Boke]

I can't understand why gamma correction was ever considered the job of the video card in the first place. It is a job for the monitor. Most PC monitors are not even close to being calibrated correctly. After getting tired of fighting the Radeons broken gamma settings... I pulled my monitor out of its case.. found a POT called 'SUBPXL BRT'.. gave it a 1/8 turn... and now I never have to adjust the gamma for anything. And as stated previously.. the color seperation/range is much better if the video cards gamma is left at default.

 

[MfA]

With 10+ bit DAC's loss of precision due to extra quantization due to gamma correction is not a big issue.

Most content for PC's has been pre-gamma corrected already, so you really need to have adaptable gamma correction (for most content its not an issue since they dont need to work in a linear color space ... unlike rendering).

 

[Boke]

True... my monitor's calibration was so far out off, that even with the brightness turned all the way up, I had to put the gamma slider to near its maximum setting to see anything as it should be. Thats probably why I noticed such a big difference in color range after adjusting it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Boke on 2002-02-20 20:21 ]</font>

 

[Freon]

I'd really just like to play in a very accurately simulated world, whether fantasy or real.

Top notch AI, voice recognition and synthesis, top notch physics. The pillars of a fully simulated world. Well, that's probably asking too much now, but deep characters with many responses, decent physics, and large non-linear maps are realistic goals.

Imagine every feature of GTA3, Hitman, Deus Ex, Everquest, and Final Fantasy with graphics on par with the 3DMark2001 nature scene or Doom 3. I suppose a game with no goal is not going to be possible for a long time, so a plotline is still probably preferred. The genre will expand over time from games like Deus Ex and Theif to eventually be accurate enough to a deep enough simulation that the player can set their own goals. Put them in a world of strife (hey, ya gotta have a conflict) and make sure it is possible to become powerful and feel fulfilled.

Control would be quite an interesting problem. Hopefully by the time all the above is feasible we'll have implants that can be controlled directly by though and direct retinal projection. :smile:

Warren Spector and Harvey Smith have hinted at similar goals in interviews talking about Deus Ex 2. They're looking to provide a simulation deep enough that the character can create new ways of solving problems that the designer did not necessarily think of. For me, on the few occassions I had done something like that (even if it was a borderline exploit), it had been very fulfilling.

That is what I look forward to in the future in general. Not necessarily *completely* open-ended gaming, but a deep enough similation to tackle given problems in any feasibly way I choose or can be clever enough to invent.

Deus Ex 2 is probably most closely going to match what I want in the next generation of gaming. I know it won't have drop dead gorgeous graphics, but at least it won't be C&amp;C Renegade. *cough*

 

[JavaJones]

Actually, according to the DX2 team, despite their obvious central focus on open ended puzzle solving, physics, AI, etc. graphic will actually be made more of a focus in DX2 than they were in DX1. I'm not sure what the Unreal Warfare engine that they're using is totally capable of, nor how they will be extending it, but there are hints that there may be some level of real time full or partial dynamic shadowing. I'm really looking forward to DX2, but I'm not expecting it until 2003.

- JavaJones

 

[Guest]

I like to see debrie and I mean real not that blocky stuff they throw at u for years.

When u crash with ur F1 car, damage spaceships, objects etc. and I like to see no more square looking puppets. No more 50 bugs when it hit the shelf and need 7 patches to make it playeble and almost bugfree since 100% seems like utopia.

all lighting to look realistic(in a nutshell)
I still see legs half in a wall sigh they have a Long long long way to go.

It doesn't matter if you have a low/mid/high end vidcard and insane Mhz cpu if u like the max u can play the max if u cant it still will be very playeble and look good as today they lack development for highend and compromise to much..........

(Peace on earth would be nice but it seems it is in the humans nature to be destructive and to be more destructive every generation and they wonder why there so many old people...duh since the young are thinking career first, to dangerous to bring kids into the world, to expensive to give them a decent live and that is just a tip of the gigantic iceberg.....)