Next generation graphics engine

I would like to see 1nsane 2 which could be basically same game but with few good graphical improvments; landscape could be done with Displacement mapping and shadows could done using dynamic lightning. Of course Landscape should filled with grass and trees & etc. (like in 3DMark Nature test.) For tire tracks EMBM would look pretty good.

but with that amount of detail, I think it is very far away... :smile:
 
I would like to see more realistic collision. I mean collision of human bodies, today's games always makes me think human body a hard rock...or several rocks link together..
 
Heat effects! F1 World Grand Prix uses EMBM to do a pretty nice heat effect over the car engine.
 
While Deus Ex was still a long way away from "blow a wall up and go that way" it definately was the closest you could get yet.
Deformable terrain engines have been done already. Why do people keep forgetting about Red Faction? Sure the game was medicore, but the technology behind their deformable terrain engine was fantastic. In the singleplayer demo they made a map consisting of a large cube room with glass house in the middle. I spent hours trying to get onto the top of the house. Using the rockets I'd make an entry point in the wall and slowly blow away bit after bit making a ramp into the ceiling. Then, I'd drop down on top of the house from above it. :smile:

_________________
Like my Dad always says, "The day I can't do my job drunk, is the day I hand in my badge and gun."

Where the sidewalk ends...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: KnightBreed on 2002-02-17 19:01 ]</font>
 
IMO i didnt find the Geomod technology particularly impressive. Yeah its fun blowing holes in walls, but it was fad, a five minute wonder, and after an hour i forgot all about it.

For kicks in the training room (glass house) I blew away all of the ground from its foundations and the building just stood there, with nothing underneath it ;)

RoLo
 
Actually I found GeoMod to be more usefull in on-line plan. For example about 5 minutes into any map played on-line it became a huge task of how to defend your flag with so many new holes blow every were. Or to find the fastest way to a gun in DM mode. It was not so much fun in the single play mode...
 
I was thinking a game somewhat like that , but where you can use anything . You don't just find explosives lying around on the street , you would have to go through the proper channels (or make it yourself) to get them , and then deal with it . I mean why would a mine have rocket launchers lying all over the place ? Or a game where you could run into someone and it would knock them over , or if they are bigger , knock you over . More freedom I guess .
 
I want a game engine that renders everything as a giant particle system, and has physics and lighting effects happening on every particle. :smile:

Yes, I'm insane. :smile:

Nite_Hawk
 
KnightBreed: I did that to (blew my way up to the ceiling). I proceeded to make a circular corridor in the ceiling (like a donut) and then I started shooting out the middle of it so an enormous piece (the centre of the donut) of the ceiling would fall down, unfortunately, after a while my rockets stopped doing damage to the surroundings, it look like they had put a cap on how many times you could blow away chunks of the world before it stopped working

KingRolo: I did that too, but in my version (on the PC) the house stood on poles.


Edit: Typos. Looks like I'm going back to my old habit of editing everything I post :smile:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Thowllly on 2002-02-19 01:02 ]</font>
 
On 2002-02-17 02:19, Xmas wrote:
On 2002-02-17 01:55, Humus wrote:
Normalmaps are independent of orientation since they contain tangent space normals. It may screw up lightvectors though depending on how they are implemented.
Imagine a normal map with a half-sphere like this. Now imagine those two triangles were turned into a curved patch with TruForm... would it still look like a sphere? I guess no.

Nope, but it's not the normalmaps fault but rather that the tangentspace has changed.
(I'm not even sure it would look like a sphere even if the lighting would have been correctly calculated when the geometry has changed)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Humus on 2002-02-19 10:42 ]</font>
 
I want decent smoke!
Im tired of several transparent polygons with a smokey texture applied to them floating about in front of me, it looks shite.

Define a fog volume or something, which has a fog density function dependant on the distance from the centre of the volume. Store that in its integral form and you should be able to work out how foggy to make a pixel that lies behind a shadow volume, just trace a line back and work out where it enters and leaves the volume and plug those into the equation.

Would mean some complex maths, but if its done in hardware could mean hard favours fog.

Hell, with this you could define large volumes and with many smaller volumes inside to act as clouds and also apply a vertex program so that when something moves through it it disturbs them slightly. You could have them as ground level mist/clouds and buildings and cars and such have a generalised modifier volume set to turn off the fog, so it will look realistic and not penetrate through the walls of buildings.

Wot u think?

Dave
 
Well, I know you said just graphics, but what good are nice graphics without proper physics, good sound, etc? So here goes. I'm sure I'll repeat a ton of stuff that other people have already mentioned. In the end we all want similiar features anyways though...

Pre-requisites: Development started immediately upon availability of enough information regarding DX9 to *fully* target DX9 features. This means development could have started during DX8 widespread availability, or even beta phase, presuming enough DX9 info was available. Developer and publisher are targeting DX9 hardware *exclusively*, with *no* fallbacks, and top end processors and memory configurations projected for DX9 release. Engine should be completed within 2 months of R300/NV30 release (whichever releases later). Target frame rate is 60 frames per second at 1024x768x32 with no FSAA, but full anisotropic and trilinear filtering and all details at maximum (for single processor version, not high fidelity mode as described below). Provisions are not made in the first release to maintain any semblance of compatibility with pre-DX9 cards. Engine is based on DX9 as OGL 2.0 will not likely be ready in time. Networking is *not* supported in initial release. Single player games always best multiplayer games in visuals, and networking need not be concentrated on for this graphics showcase.

Rough Target Platform (?): NV30/R300, 1GB PC333 DDR-RAM/RDRAM, "Athlon Hammer 3400+"/P4 2.8Ghz, Sound Blaster Audigy, DVD-ROM drive (game would be shipped on DVD).

Rendering:

Full scene lighting model. Environment, objects, etc. cast shadows on each other and on themselves. Visually, indoor and outdoor lighting should behave the same, but may use slightly different approaches.

Volumetric lighting.

Soft, perspective correct shadows. (ex: shadows get softer the further from the object casting the shadow)

Simulated radiosity using customizable granularity sub divided zone based light and surface color transmission. (I'm working
on how to impliment this. I may come up with a better way...)

Overbright lighting and simulative approach to human visual perception. An example of this, though somewhat exagerated, is found in ICO's lighting approach.

Arbitrary geometry modification. All objects and "level" geometry are fully destructable in an arbitrary manner into an arbitrary number of objects of any size, shape, velocity, etc. This, like all other engine functions, can interact with and be effected by the physics model, so buildings will fall when unsupported, pieces of objects will submerge in and displace water when of sufficient volume and mass, objects being destroyed can trigger particle systems, etc.

Deformable/destructable terrain (goes with arbitrary geometry destruction). Terrain is not based on a height map in game, but can use one to import into the editor. Overhangs, caves, etc. are possible.

Landscape engine with ecology based flora (and fauna?) distribution, implimented in editor and engine.

Accurate atmosphere, outdoor lighting and haze modelling algorithm based on algorithms similiar to those implimented in Terragen (in other words, visually accurate).

Metaballs system with dynamic and customizable tesselation and LOD. Affected by physics model (used for small scale water
simulation), and able to interact fully with and be effected by all other world objects.

Support for 3D textures, bump mapping, texture compression (DXTC), texture sizes up to 4096x4096, real time reflections and refractions, render resolutions up to 2048x2048, in game screenshot and Quicktime VR capture, volumetric fog (and clouds,
both of which can be effected by physics engine), multireflection (mirror reflecting a mirror's reflection), skeletal animation with inverse kinematics which interacts with the physics and colision detection, anisotropic effects (reflection, etc.) and any other buzzword you can think of. ;)

All surfaces bump mapped where appropriate.

Any object may be used as a camera. Unlimited independant cameras possible in each scene. Mostly this is done for real time cut scene and Machinima purposes.

Full particle system that interacts with physics, sound, AI, objects, etc. An object could have a hook to a particle system in its material properties so that it melts at a certain "temperature" for instance. Due to physics interractions particles can be dispersed by rocket trails, running characters, etc. Particles can also stick to objects and slowly fall off over time or as the object moves.

Materials include multiple channels which can be based on procedurals, textures, or information from other objects or
modifiers. Channels include specular, alpha, transparency, bump, displacement, etc.

Procedural texturing engine. Generated textures can be use for any texture channel, alpha, bump, displacement, etc.

Extremely customizable rendering engine with support for various styles of cartoon/cel/sketch rendering, with extreme
customizability, both in the editor, and in the user environment. Think Serious Sam level of options, including hue, saturation
and color controls, but with added cel shading and many other effects. Examples of alternate render styles include "blue
print", "matrix", "pencil sketch", "colored pencil sketch", "charcoal", "ink outlines", etc. Option to use "real time computer graphics" or "human visual system" for lighting simulation for another example. The former is more similiar to traditional game lighting, the latter is like ICO or Ghost Recon.

Physics:

A full physics model including cloth physics, water/fluid physics with accurate wave and ripple interreaction (covered later
in Water engine as well), soft and rigid bodies, springs, "Incredible Machine"-like physically based object interractions
such as objects having a "flammable" flag, which allows all objects of this type to be set alight.

"Forces" implimented as part of physics model. Push, pull, vortex, wind, gravity, etc. All fully customizable *per instance*,
like Serious Sam's gravity that changes in different rooms.

Arbitrary collision detection boundaries (up to per polygon accuracy if appropriate) with an intelligent "LOD"-style algorithm.

AI:

AI has a learning ability, like Black and White.

Characters include information similiar to other objects on basic properties, "motivations", states (emotional and otherwise) etc. Each character could be implimented like a simple RPG character for instance, with strength, skills, items, etc.

Implimentation of a game oriented, stripped down but enhanced (in speed and appropriateness to application) version of the Cyc NLP/Reasoning engine and knowledge base, for NPC interraction with the player as well as NPC interraction with the world.

Sound:

64 3D sound channels, support for Dolby Digital EX, support for MIDI, MOD, and Ogg Vorbis/MP3 audio, with dynamic music support that can accept data from any scene object or group of scene objects.

Full sound propogation and material reflection implimentation.

Support for HRTF, Doppler Effects, Reverb, Chorus, etc. on all game sounds, including music.

Misc:

Object data exchange protocoll, similiar to Unix piping. Levels and behaviors are composed of many smaller, simpler actions,
rather than explicitly scripted and created as a whole. This creates more emergent gameplay, and a greater degree of environment, character, and object interraction. Many of the more successful robotics approaches these days are using
combinations of simpler behaviours to create more complex and adaptable robotic entities.

LOD system for textures, geometry, etc. AI, physics, and all other systems dynamically adjustable in an LOD-style manner to maintain performance.

A full water engine, with a separate "micro fluid" engine to simulate smaller scale fluids like glasses of water, toilets,
sinks, puddles of water, rain drops, etc. Full scale water engine includes perspective correct reflection, refraction, water
coloring, depth based transparency and coloring, simulated caustics, "god rays", foam, wave interreaction, wave propogation,
particle system hooks, displacement, etc. Both water engines can be adapted for use with other similiar scale fluids such as
liquid metal, blood, etc.

Fully optimized for AMD and Intel's latest processors and multimedia instructions.

Optimized for dual processor support.

Functions can be flagged as "essential"/"priority" and will recieve processor priority and LOD bias preference. Non essential functions will only be fully implimented with sufficient processor power, perhaps only on dual processor systems.

A "high fidelity" mode implimented *only* for dual processor systems that increases non-essential, processor intensive detail
such as small scale physical simulation (more detailed water or particle physics for instance). Dual processor systems will
never become more main stream if there are no applications to take advantage of them.

Object and effect "states" with interraction properties and rules. Imagine a task based AI implimentation that is asked to make food for itself. It needs to know where food is, what state the food is in (frozen, raw, etc.), what state it needs the food to be in to eat it, how much to eat, and perhaps even what foods go well together or the fact that it likes more than one kind of food. The food, and the various preparation objects "broadcast" their functions and states to help the AI accomplish these tasks. I believe The Sims works partially in this way. Objects have a multitude of properties, possibly stored in a large relational database. Information is classified by perception level, so that only certain information is available to an AI entity with only a visual inspection. Thus traps may be set and catch AI characters unawares (AI is not inherently aware of entire game state in other words). Objects have material properties including tensile strenth, flammability, melting point, base color, mass, rigidity, etc.

Content Creation and Mod Support:

Full real time editor including lights, shadowing, procedural textures, etc. Editor runs the engine in a window basically, at
a target frame rate of 30fps, half of the full engine frame rate. This should be quite achievable on the target platform.

Dual processor systems may be needed for full real time feedback of all effects. Real time feedback can be turned on or off and detail levels set for each type of scene and object property. Physics system may be turned on or off in editor for instance, for greater responsiveness and control.

Editor support for scripted events, in engine cut scenes, etc. Engine cut scenes can be rendered out to movie files like AVI,
Quicktime, etc.

MOD support includes a proprietary scripting engine (similiar to python, semi-human readable), a relational database editor,
behavior (AI and other objects) editor, a 3D engine editor, a cut scene scripter, etc. All are implimented as modules of a
central editing application and include macros for ease of editing larger behaviors, events, and situations.

Script based events and interractions for creating explicit states and scenes.

Objects can be grouped together conceptually and information from them output as a single entity to drive certain functions.

A flock of birds could have sound simulated by creating a flock object and outputting the number of birds in the flock to a
semi-randomized chorus effect on a single wing flapping sound (simple and probably bad example, but hopefully you get the
idea). Weapon impact proximity and number could be used to directly influence music tempo or instruments used, as another
example.

Editor includes a full editor for procedural textures with accurate real time visual feedback. Combining image based textures
with procedurals also possible.

Application: This engine would be used to make a Deus Ex style game, but with a more wide open story, more varied characters,
and less defined and narrow objectives. A "true" RPG perhaps, along the lines of what Project Ego is supposed to be for the
XBox, but in a more modern or perhaps futuristic setting. Ideally a world like that portrayed in The Reality Dysfunction
series of novels by Peter F. Hamilton, or perhaps something like Neuromancer or Snow Crash.

The key: Publishing model. First "episode" is published online *only*. $15 for download, $25 + s/h for shipped copy with
manual and CD. Demo also available with only one "level" (area) of the entire city available in the initial internet release.
1 year later game is re-released in stores for public consumption, with fall back paths implimented for older hardware, and
all advanced effects and high rez textures in an "advanced pack" second disk and an additional 2 "episodes" of content,
spanning perhaps several more cities, more items, weapons, skills (?), and an extension to the story. Thes version is also made available online, but is not available for download.

I believe much of what I've described would actually be possible were the pre-requisite criteria to be met. I know some of my
implimentation approaches and ideas may not be ideal, but I believe the underlying ideas are still sound, in general.

I've also probably missed some stuff that I would like to include, and each point deserves more elaboration. For the
purposes of this topic what I've put so far should suffice however. I have a more complete version of this somewhere, but this is all off the top of my head so to speak.

- JavaJones

P.S. Yes, there would be a flame thrower. :D

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: JavaJones on 2002-02-19 14:05 ]</font>
 
JavaJones,

Wow, that's a very comprehensive set of features! You've obviously put a bit of thought into the subject.

Just thinking, such a system would be pretty good for a persistent MMORPG (once Broadband is more common) - you just set the initial world and let the players get on with it...

Is there some simple primitive that could be used in a bottom-up approach to facilitate emergent behaviour? For example instead of a triangles, could you use pyramids (only one face is visible) with each having properties such as density, friction, stickiness, compressibility, temperature, velocity etc. So a cube would actually be modelled by the physics engine as six pyramids stuck together but only the outside faces would need to be rendered. Something like finite element analysis or an alternative springs to mind.

EDIT - I need a better spell checker :cry:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Musivarius on 2002-02-19 20:39 ]</font>
 
One more feature Id like to see, take gamma correction out of textures and put it where it belongs.
 
Thats where it belongs, but not where everyone puts it (ie. they use identity for "gamma correction", and adapt their textures and lighting equation to fudge over the fact that you are no longer doing lighting in a linear color space).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MfA on 2002-02-19 23:13 ]</font>
 
On 2002-02-19 13:33, KingRoLo wrote:
OT quick question, Is Unreal 2 going to support pixel/vertex shaders?
Not sure about Unreal2 but if you're referring to what Tim Sweeney is working on for Epic's own next game, Tim is using DX7's pixel pipeline plus combiners and probably some dependent texture reads for smallish scenes. Non DX8 hardware will run slower due to more passes but that's about it I think. DX8 hardware not required.
 
On 2002-02-19 00:23, Musivarius wrote:
Rather than particles - how about metaballs?

I just want metaballic (sic) teapots!

Yes, I'm insane too :smile:

Thanks, I did not know such a thing existed. I really wish I knew more about these things. Are they made out of polygons? Metaballs would really make the deferred rendering technology shine in my opinion. Using these you could actually model the guts of whatever you wanted them to spill out of. And with deferred rendering, you wouldn't render them till you make an opening in the body. It would put SoF2 GHOULII to shame.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: LittlePenny on 2002-02-20 03:02 ]</font>
 
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