Next Gen GPU architecture GCN, RDNA, Navi 10/20 (PS5 Navi Hybrid, Xbox Navi Pure) *spawn*

[Deleted member 11852]

They were first-time ever mid-gen refreshes - of course there was going to be excitement! In terms of sales, they haven't set the world alight. When annual refreshes are common-place, excitement will drop off a cliff.

I don't think we'll get annual refreshed but more regular released. Despite the fact new phones, new cars and new TVs, do very little more than last years, people are still excited by them. But if you're only going to get excited by genuinely new technology why was there so much excitement for PS4 and Xbox One? Arguably neither offered new gaming technology, it was just newer gaming hardware able to get closer to full HD that the previous HD generation failed to deliver on.

No other product sector out there runs alongside next-gen content that takes 3+ years to make.

The car industry is one that runs like this. Your 2019 M3 is pretty much your 2018 M3 which was pretty much your 2017 M3. The 2020 M3 though.. oh that looks interesting!

 

[BRiT]

The car industry is one that runs like this.

It also runs like Nintendo, using years old technology.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

It also runs like Nintendo, using years old technology.

That's mostly because when your Switch crashes, nobody dies.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The car industry is one that runs like this. Your 2019 M3 is pretty much your 2018 M3 which was pretty much your 2017 M3. The 2020 M3 though.. oh that looks interesting!

I think we have different ideas of 'excitement' if you feel the annual iterations of motor vehicles are generating the same buzz and anticipation as the sexennial console generations.

 

[Kaotik]

Listing 'SSD', we know Sony haven't just slapped an SSD in there, but have developed and patented techs to make an optimal solution. The addition of RT isn't just lip-service to hardware capable of running RT in theory but never to be used in practice as it isn't fast enough - it's one of the key tenets of the platform that Sony have felt need to mention already.

Do we actually know that? I was under the impression that only thing we know currently is that it's leaps and bounds faster than slapping SSD on PS4(Pro)?
I wouldn't be surprised if it's more of AMD's HBCC and SSG than anything else really

 

[Shifty Geezer]

We have their patents on the matter telling us the lengths Sony have gone to to investigate IO performance.

 

[temesgen]

We have their patents on the matter telling us the lengths Sony have gone to to investigate IO performance.

I don't think Sony would go to all this trouble just to decrease load times, it's pretty clear to me that this approach is being used to reduce the amount of memory needed in the console. I think people are going to be disappointed if they are expecting more than 12 to 16GB of memory.

 

[Rufio]

I don't understand the logic behind the claim that the PS5 has a vega/Navi hybrid to ensure bc. By that logic Sony has to keep this hybrid solution till the end of time to have bc.
When the ps4 pro launched it had features of the yet to release Vega cards.
It's not like AMD has to release a pc graphics card before this chip can get used in consoles. These things are developed in tandem.
The final devkits of the ps4 were only released half a year prior to launch if I remember correctly.
The 5700 releases in two months which means it had its design completion a long time ago.
The ps5 apu has probably just recently been design completed and is just in testing phase for mass production early next year. It could be that only handselected chips are made for development kits.
These apu could have the full rdna architecture + Sony specific features.

Lisa su said this at computex:
.... Radeon 7, was the world's first 7nm GPU... It has incredible performance across gaming as well compute workloads and when you look what we are doing at datacenter with Radeon mi60 and mi50, we have a number of design wins and engagements that are looking to bring Vega into all aspects of the datacenter. And what we see is tremendous momentum. So you're gonna continue to see vega in these large compute intensive workstation workloads and you'll hear more about that in the coming weeks and months."
Which points to me to Microsoft and Phil Spencer talks about dual purposing the chip for console and server and not to Sony because of bc, which is a pure software solution independent of GPU architecture, imho.

 

[AlNom]

^ Stadia :V

 

[Rufio]

^ Stadia :V

Yeah, but it has already been announced. It seems there is more unannounced Vega stuff in the pipeline if I interpret Su correctly... Either way, the next 9 months will get very interesting.

 

[BRiT]

I don't understand the logic behind the claim that the PS5 has a vega/Navi hybrid to ensure bc. By that logic Sony has to keep this hybrid solution till the end of time to have bc.
When the ps4 pro launched it had features of the yet to release Vega cards.

No, the 4Pro is a PS4 GPU with some additional instructions. It did not pick up any other changes at the instruction level from newer GCN revisions that were available at the time. There were GCN instructions where behaviors changed or removed entirely on the PC side, but the 4Pro picked up none of those changes. They went through the effort of ensuring none of those changes were included.

Sony needs to either keep the hardware support or 'get good' on their software stack.

 

[Rufio]

No, the 4Pro is a PS4 GPU with some additional instructions. It did not pick up any other changes at the instruction level from newer GCN revisions that were available at the time. There were GCN instructions where behaviors changed or removed entirely on the PC side, but the 4Pro picked up none of those changes. They went through the effort of ensuring none of those changes were included.

Sony needs to either keep the hardware support or 'get good' on their software stack.

Thanks for further clarification.
What I was trying to say was, that the Polaris GPU for the PC didn't feature RPM but went into the ps4 pro. So it debuted first in console. Is that correct?
'Get good' in software side..I think Sony is well aware of that...

 

[iroboto]

I don't understand the logic behind the claim that the PS5 has a vega/Navi hybrid to ensure bc. By that logic Sony has to keep this hybrid solution till the end of time to have bc.
When the ps4 pro launched it had features of the yet to release Vega cards.

It's not really based on that aspect, this is all conjecture on speculation. The cream of bullshit sort of speak at least with respect to data integrity. But it's an interesting story to discuss.
I definitely don't think they need hybrid GCN to do BC, but it's an unknown qty however, and the frankenmachine that is 4Pro a taped together PS4 with some Vega features added on. Boost mode is still not 100% stable for all their titles.

But that's not why we're saying this hybrid navi is why/what Sony needs to ensure BC, look in reverse and the answer becomes more clear.

Recap Old Rumours/Leaks
* insiders implying that Sony is designing navi with AMD,
* Raja upset that Sony requiring more engineers and causing Vega off track
* Leaks say Sony aims to release for 2019
* Insiders call off 2019 launch later on saying it was intended but no more
* Sony skips E3

You'll need to take all the rumours together as true, then the exclusive Navi would have to be the one to release in 2019 right, I mean, that's what their aim was for. It would only make sense that they wouldn't have an exclusive on a Navi that isn't due to come out in 2021. So timing needs to be appreciated here let's ignore the discussion of exclusivity at the moment.

Recent Rumours
* Navi 10 is a hybrid GCN Navi with Navi parts built into it but still have CUs more compatible with older GCN
* Navi 10 GPUs are being released this year in 2019 on July 7.
* Navi 20 is pure but not expected to release until 2020

If branches are too trunks then Hybrids are too Pure, then Sony cannot have exclusivity on the pure line, as that is the basis for all of AMD's cards for the next 10 years as per what Su says. Which means Sony could have an exclusive on a derivative line.

So if what Sony has is indeed exclusive and they wanted a 2019 launch. Then the logical conclusion is that they are responsible for co-developing this hybrid navi with AMD as this is the only derivative Navi line and launching in 2019. And they have their ray tracing and whatever other bells and whistles in there too. If we agree to this, now we can look at their design, and look at the claim on supporting BC. We can look at 4Pro and ask ourselves has this happened in the past to maintain compatibility. Answers are currently yes, so perhaps this leak has more merit.

People bitch and moan about performance and architectures and not sucking out that last 5-15% something something generation lost on power. I went Xbox this year, trust me I know. lol.

But let's be real; many of realistic expectations around next-gen performance should land around 2070RTX performance in 2020 for $399. It's much easier to just stick to benchmarks to get an idea of performance, people are going to be very disappointed if they are looking for a specific TF number; the 2070RTX is amazing value when paired with a Zen2 CPU at $399.

I'm seeing benchmarks of around 2070 performance for Navi 10 (though we haven't seen RT performance yet) and if it launches in 2019, that's a year ahead of what I thought was possible since the RTX line launched in 9 months ago.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

As for skipping E3, perhaps the landscape has changed enough to release a new console in the same fashion as 4Pro and so they don’t need or want E3 to buy their developers more time to work without needing to demo. Or to demo later in the year having more time with the SDKs.

Sort of extending on that idea. Skipping a console announcement at E3 could give them an opportunity to announce a launch at a later date this year for a launch in early 2020. Two thing would kind of lend some validity to an argument going that direction.

• The Nintendo Switch launch did quite well releasing early in the year. They were supply constrained for many months, but not supply constrained for the very important Holiday Season. If you know you are likely to be supply constrained anyway, why launch into a shopping season that moves more product than at any other time of the year?
• If we assume that Navi was delayed from internal projections and thus PS5 is delayed from internal projections, then launching earlier might give them a slight advantage over a competitor launching during the traditional Holiday shopping season.

I'd still say PS5 will launch in the fall as it traditionally has outside of Japan, but I could see a possibility of a launch earlier in the year.

Regards,
SB

 

[RDGoodla]

There are a lot of stories which want to "prove" that XBOX will be the most powerful console, just because MS is "aiming" for it. Let's think, how many people begins to think Sony makes various stupid mistakes under the assumption that XBOX is more powerful?

It seems that the most recent story is that PS5 uses an outdated GPU so that XBOX will become most powerful.

 

[Jay]

There are a lot of stories which want to "prove" that XBOX will be the most powerful console, just because MS is "aiming" for it. Let's think, how many people begins to think Sony makes various stupid mistakes under the assumption that XBOX is more powerful?

It seems that the most recent story is that PS5 uses an outdated GPU so that XBOX will become most powerful.

Away for a few days and come back to console waring?
Is rest of thread like this or is it worth going through? Pretty disappointed in B3D if it couldn't keep from sinking.

Nice it was spawned of, thought would still be good discussion

 

[Tkumpathenurple]

No, the 4Pro is a PS4 GPU with some additional instructions. It did not pick up any other changes at the instruction level from newer GCN revisions that were available at the time. There were GCN instructions where behaviors changed or removed entirely on the PC side, but the 4Pro picked up none of those changes. They went through the effort of ensuring none of those changes were included.

Sony needs to either keep the hardware support or 'get good' on their software stack.

Agreed.

I think that's where the logic lay in the rumour of a Vega/Navi hybrid. Whatever form that would even take, it may have been deemed the best way of ensuring 100% B/C with the PS4. That grants Sony and AMD another 3 or 4 years to get a pure RDNA system to run GCN/GNM.

What kind of considerations would that take though? The hybrid aspects may be an effective way of ensuring B/C. But if the goal is to transition to pure RDNA with a PS5Pro, would the Vega aspects of the hybrid architecture need to be "hidden" from developers?

 

[iroboto]

There are a lot of stories which want to "prove" that XBOX will be the most powerful console, just because MS is "aiming" for it. Let's think, how many people begins to think Sony makes various stupid mistakes under the assumption that XBOX is more powerful?

It seems that the most recent story is that PS5 uses an outdated GPU so that XBOX will become most powerful.

I don't think there is really an agenda here. PS5 either is or isn't. Xbox either is or isn't. If we look at strict probabilities between 2 consoles and we naively know nothing about either of them, they both have a 50% chance of being the more powerful console. If there are 3 consoles in the race, then each one has 33% chance of being the most powerful. 2 of them are actually Xbox, giving naively, xbox a chance at being 66% more powerful over PS5s 33% chance. Welcome to Naive Bayes; how annoying would it be to a Sony fan if both Xbox's are more powerful than PS5. No one has even considered that possibility because we all think we're smarter than our biases.

The story crafted here on this thread is from the rumours surrounding Sony, from it's co-designing with AMD, and the talks of more engineers, a 2019 release date, the 'exclusive' design.

We know nothing about MS. I'm not saying necessarily Navi 20 is MS, perhaps that was the wrong thing to bring into this topic. As many have written, perhaps it's Vega, or Polaris. We've little to no information, though leaks continue to indicate it as Navi as well. But we've done away with picking and choosing which rumours to believe and not to believe, for this thread we went to believe them all. And logic would show you that Sony cannot have exclusivity on pure Navi branch; simply because all other semi-custom solutions would only have access to Vega for the next 10 years. It doesn't leave a lot of room when you look at it this way.

I'm not saying that this Navi 10 will be PS5s chip, but if it releases in 2019, it sure looks like it. 2020 could be a different animal entirely, and that's fine.

But if we're real about it, you're going to be disappointed by the upcoming specs. If winning is that important to you; if Sony and MS have aligned launches and the specs are garbage for all the machines, you're probably going to want to wish that Sony released 1 year earlier with the same spec, than 1 year later. Because that is the winning move for Sony.

I think most people once again are too concerned with MS vs Sony. Sony needs to improve on their 2:1 ratio over Xbox to be considered a success to shareholders. The annual BS of demanding an additional 5% gain YoY on performance.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think most people once again are too concerned with MS vs Sony. Sony needs to improve on their 2:1 ratio over Xbox to be considered a success to shareholders. The annual BS of demanding an additional 5% gain YoY on performance.

It's worse than that as PS4 is selling more like 3:1 now. VGChartz, I know, and we don't really have XB1 numbers either, but...

That's why I say MS's move has to based not on winning console sales, but besting their entire platform. Meanwhile, with PS being so important to Sony's bottom line, it's more important for them to secure that top spot again than it is to MS. Given Sony have more to lose, and MS have more interest elsewhere (cloud), it's not unreasonable to argue that Sony will pull out all the stops and go for broke. But it's also not unreasonable to argue that MS will aim for a super high-end niche and have the most powerful machine anyway, electing to sell to a niche.

Basically, an argument can be made for why either platform 'should' be the most powerful. It's also a silly and boring argument for the playground. On B3D, it's more interesting to work through the logic of what choices are being made then come up with some reason to believe on machine will be more powerful only to find it does/doesn't and that doesn't stop the fans buying the machine anyway! In such cases they'll just invent some hidden CUs and second GPU madness anyway (or power of the cloud, or power of the Cell, or AI processors...), so there's no point visiting that domain at all.

 

[Silenti]

I am very curious about the nature of that partnership (to be kind) between MS and Sony for use of Azure. I wonder just how much pressure they are feeling looking at a future gaming environment which could include Apple, Amazon and Google on top of the existing players.

I am also still shocked we have gotten jack all for leaks. Sony had their little reveal, vague though it was - or perhaps more fair to say "broad strokes", and made mention they thought stuff would leak soon anyway thank to dev kits going out. There was that tweet from someone about lots of info being out there and many journalists just waiting for multiple confirmations to spill the beans. That was weeks ago and we have jack. I really thought solid info from a reputable source (meaning - not anonymous posts on 4chan, pastebin, reddit, etc) would be coming through by now. A really tight lid seems to have been kept on. That alone is rather impressive.