News & Rumours: Playstation 4/ Orbis *spin*

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Some interesting discussion here about console makers needing to change their business model in certain areas, like an app. store with in-game purchases, easier to publish games for smaller developers, etc.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2013/feb/18/playstation-4-xbox-720-future-consoles


Airline capacity is being reduced and prices are up, because of thin margins in the face of higher fuel prices. But demand in some regions are growing at a healthy rate:


http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20130131-708326.html
 
wco81 said:
Some interesting discussion here about console makers needing to change their business model in certain areas, like an app. store with in-game purchases, easier to publish games for smaller developers, etc.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2013/feb/18/playstation-4-xbox-720-future-consoles
Click to expand...

That was interesting. One bit tags in quite nicely with what I've seen with some friends of mine who jumped into the iphone thing near the start. They are similar to one of the guys interviewed in that they no longer browse the iOS appstore much, or buy many applications anymore. Not like when they first got the devices. The same applies for many of those early adopters who then switched to Android. They bought the bare necessities then pretty much ignore the app store (games included).

I think the majority of app purchases are with people relatively new to the smartphone thing. Where they are willing to buy and try just about anything and hope they get something good. People that have had them longer start thinking of them more as appliances and less as adventuresome gaming devices (IE - they settle into their 2-3 or more games that they regularly play and don't really pay attention to anything new released unless someone else says it's a must have).

It's pretty rare that I run into that type of thing for PC or console gamers. It does happen, of course. Just not as much. Usually if they are interested in gaming they continue to buy somewhat frequently even if the frequency goes down. If they aren't they usually don't buy a lot of games in the first place.

Regards,
SB
 
It's a multilayer thing.

Orbis is a gamers' device. Hardcore gamers who see the value will be willing to pay for the console.

Sony's game business is already evolving. Playstation Mobile, Gaikai, Playstation Plus are all part of this movement. They will continue to evolve based on market feedback.

For a large company, you don't look at the current situation to plan your "pillar". The economy will come back some day in different ways, and they will want to be well-positioned to tap on the upswing. Cheap entertainment (watching movie, playing games, as opposed to say... traveling) may be recession resilient.

From Sony's perspective, they will probably try to sell PS1/2/3/4/Mobile/Portable/Vita library on as many platforms as possible. Those will be money from other people's platforms.

It may be more interesting to see how they fence up PS4 contents and services to extract premium dollars from the niche consumers, compared to cheap PS2 games for example.

It will also be interesting to see how Sony work with B&M stores in this digital age (e.g., taking a cut from used game sales)
 
patsu said:
For a large company, you don't look at the current situation to plan your "pillar". The economy will come back some day in different ways, and they will want to be well-positioned to tap on the upswing. Cheap entertainment (watching movie, playing games, as opposed to say... traveling) may be recession resilient.
Click to expand...

That only works if your company is still around when the economy eventually enters full recovery. Hence the relatively conservative hardware of Orbis.

From Sony's perspective, they will probably try to sell PS1/2/3/4/Mobile/Portable/Vita library on as many platforms as possible. Those will be money from other people's platforms.

It may be more interesting to see how they fence up PS4 contents and services to extract premium dollars from the niche consumers, compared to cheap PS2 games for example.

It will also be interesting to see how Sony work with B&M stores in this digital age.
Click to expand...

I think it's going to come down to how well they can polish their interface with regards to the mass consumer rather than the core gamer. In order to truly monetize the living room experience and online products and services, they need to have a universal, attractive, and easy to use solution.

You can't have something that works one way on Vita, another way on their Smart TV, yet another way on smartphones, a different way on PCs, etc... IMO, they need to have the experience be so similar as to basically be the same on all devices. So that however a person chooses to access it, it will always be familiar and comfortable.

Regards,
SB
 
They say it's like 5% or less of the users who download freemium games for mobile devices who buy up all the in-game content to account for most of the revenues for those games.
 
wco81 said:
They say it's like 5% or less of the users who download freemium games for mobile devices who buy up all the in-game content to account for most of the revenues for those games.
Click to expand...

That doesn't surprise me considering what I've seen in some of the F2P MMORPGs. I'd guess it'd be the same way there where a small minority basically make up for the lost monthly subscription that would come from a traditional MMO.

And considering that I ran into quite a few people that spent hundreds of USD a month on the Free 2 Play MMORPG, I'm definitely not surprised. I myself would budget 10-20 USD a month if a F2P MMORPG was good just to reward the developers and get at least some of the stuff you'd get in a traditional monthly fee MMORPG.

Regards,
SB
 
Silent_Buddha said:
That only works if your company is still around when the economy eventually enters full recovery. Hence the relatively conservative hardware of Orbis.
Click to expand...

I don't think Orbis or Durango is conservative. Some time ago, people were debating whether 2GB GDDR will be too expensive to include in Orbis.

They are designed according to developer feedback, technical direction, and economic considerations. In comparison, PS3 is the one-off bold entry, with billions invested in Blu-ray and Cell. That one is the outlier. ^_^

As for whether Sony is still around when the economy recovers. Welp, I don't think that's a "pillar business" type question. They will invest where the management want to go. Otherwise, why bother with $380 million Gaikai acquisition when people think it's not ready yet ?

I think it's going to come down to how well they can polish their interface with regards to the mass consumer rather than the core gamer. In order to truly monetize the living room experience and online products and services, they need to have a universal, attractive, and easy to use solution.

You can't have something that works one way on Vita, another way on their Smart TV, yet another way on smartphones, a different way on PCs, etc... IMO, they need to have the experience be so similar as to basically be the same on all devices. So that however a person chooses to access it, it will always be familiar and comfortable.

Regards,
SB
Click to expand...

Windows 8 had sexy UI but it failed to dent anything... not even Sony's fledging Xperia division.

People are oversimplifying what success means and takes. Polishing interface is key, but it is not everything. Everyone will figure out how to make nice UI anyway.

As for Playstation games, I think those who have played them before will be familiar with the experience. It's dual sticks and []OX^.
 
patsu said:
As for Playstation games, I think those who have played them before will be familiar with the experience. It's dual sticks and []OX^.
Click to expand...

Sony introduced ~154 million people to the idea of dual sticks and iconic buttons, I would think that it is pretty ingrained in the entire gaming community whether they like Sony or not!
 
Silent_Buddha said:
I think it's going to come down to how well they can polish their interface with regards to the mass consumer rather than the core gamer. In order to truly monetize the living room experience and online products and services, they need to have a universal, attractive, and easy to use solution.

You can't have something that works one way on Vita, another way on their Smart TV, yet another way on smartphones, a different way on PCs, etc... IMO, they need to have the experience be so similar as to basically be the same on all devices. So that however a person chooses to access it, it will always be familiar and comfortable.
Click to expand...

Oddly, you could look at things in a very different way for generation+1.

MS needs a success in the 'home entertainment market'. They need to be competing against apple/google and "kinect in the living room" is the opportunity to sell "kinect mobile" and potentially become relevant in the vitally important mobile/tablet markets.

But for Sony, they have a challenge very similar to that facing Nintendo:
- Sony mobile does not "need" a tie-in with a console, they've started doing ok without it.
- Sony "TV maker" is in a mess, and is not going to be saved by a console on a white horse. They appear to have a plan which involves moving into the upper end of the market.
- Sony imaging/health etc. have no need for a console.
- Sony movies/music do not need a console to do well.
- SoE does not need a console.

Sony only needs a console in order for the profitable/successful games division to actually sell games.... Whether Sony realised that when they developed the PS4 is another matter.
 
dumbo11 said:
Sony only needs a console in order for the profitable/successful games division to actually sell games.... Whether Sony realised that when they developed the PS4 is another matter.
Click to expand...

Looking at the components rumored and very likely to be in Orbis, I'd say that is a clear yes.
 
@dumbo11

I disagree on few points.

-Sony "TV maker" is in a mess.
Panasonic is not doing well either and yet it has the best Plasma TV on the market.
Sony TV now are far better than in the past years; they can rival the best Samsung LED TV and this was not the case few years ago.
I don't know if you saw it but the 4K OLDED is frankly impressive and if the Sony & Panasonic joint venture will work OLDED will become a cheaper reality which is just good business for Sony.
The TV market is not good shape but Sony is producing quality TV now.

-Sony movies/music do not need a console to do well.
Not true.
PS3 helped a lot to make BR popular and that meant benefits also for Sony movie division.
PlayStation is a gear in much bigger entertainment engine.
Remove it and the engine runs less well.

-SOE does not need a console.
They might no need it but surely it helps a lot.
DCUO on PS3 helped SOE and an PlanetSide 2 on PS4 (adapted and optimized) would no doubt help SOE IF they fail to have success on PC.
Gaikai on PS4 + SOE = great things IMO.

-Sony mobile does not "need" a tie-in with a console, they've started doing ok without it.
Sony devices can "talk" to each other and even if so far it has not been as successful it's not a pointless choice.
Remote paly, in its various forms, has great potential and it is only sad that so far been squandered.
MS with SmartGlass is pushing that way as well.
 
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Cjail said:
@dumbo11
-Sony "TV maker" is in a mess.
The TV market is not good shape but Sony is producing quality TV now.
Click to expand...
Profitability-wise, it's been in a complete mess. AFAIK they're turning it around now in a slow 'restructuring' (aka firing)... although I'm not entirely sure how well that's going. And I think the Japanese currency changes are going to help them significantly?

In terms of the other bits:
- the console can exploit parts of Sony's business in a nice manner. e.g. it can abuse the movie/music tie in.
- but those other parts of Sony's business will not receive any significant boost from a new console.

e.g.
- there's no reason a Sony tablet couldn't speak to a Durango or a Wii-U.
- Sony can sell Movies/music via their smartTVs/Durango/Wii-U/PC/tablets etc.
- Sony can create an online marketplace for android/smarttvs/PSmobile.
- SoE can ship games on PC. (and their most successful ones are exactly this)

Whether Sony built the console for this strategy remains to be seen - but strategically Sony "only" needs a successful games console...
 
dumbo11 said:
Oddly, you could look at things in a very different way for generation+1.

MS needs a success in the 'home entertainment market'. They need to be competing against apple/google and "kinect in the living room" is the opportunity to sell "kinect mobile" and potentially become relevant in the vitally important mobile/tablet markets.

But for Sony, they have a challenge very similar to that facing Nintendo:
- Sony mobile does not "need" a tie-in with a console, they've started doing ok without it.
- Sony "TV maker" is in a mess, and is not going to be saved by a console on a white horse. They appear to have a plan which involves moving into the upper end of the market.- Sony imaging/health etc. have no need for a console.
- Sony movies/music do not need a console to do well.
- SoE does not need a console.

Sony only needs a console in order for the profitable/successful games division to actually sell games.... Whether Sony realised that when they developed the PS4 is another matter.
Click to expand...

HD consoles sold HD TVs this generation. Many people wouldn't have upgraded their sets as quickly if not for the consoles requiring a TV with a much higher resolution in order to enjoy the best experience with them. Granted not all TVs sold were Bravias, but I bet some were. Likewise if the Sony PS4 can do 4K video playback, then a PS4 might sell a few Sony 4K TV sets too. It's always better to have at least something actively trying to drive sales for your business arm than nothing at all.

Additionaly, in the current era of digital media consumption as opposed to physical, Sony music/pictures absolutely needs a PS4 to push Sony produced media content. If the PS4 becomes a breakaway success like the PS1/2 was, or even if it just manages to sell of the order of 80-100million units is its lifetime, those are all platforms through which Sony can bring in more revenue to their media businesses by pushing content on said device. Additionally, if PS4 has voice recognition, some fancy camera and handsfree UI control functionality, then these are all things that can be provided by the PS4 that "enhances" the consumption of Sony pictures/music content, uniquely driving sales for those business arms through a means that requires no sharing of those revenues with external platforms/companies/3rd parties.

Even Sony electronics can benefit from a PS4 that is designed to somehow interface with Sony phones, e-readers, Vaio laptops, cameras, camcorders etc etc. If the functionality added is appealing to consumers, and can drive the uptake of those products through their association with the PS4, then its a good thing for Sony's business.
 
Prophecy2k said:
HD consoles sold HD TVs this generation. Many people wouldn't have upgraded their sets as quickly if not for the consoles requiring a TV with a much higher resolution in order to enjoy the best experience with them. Granted not all TVs sold were Bravias, but I bet some were. Likewise if the Sony PS4 can do 4K video playback, then a PS4 might sell a few Sony 4K TV sets too. It's always better to have at least something actively trying to drive sales for your business arm than nothing at all.
Click to expand...

4K video will help Sony TV/movies... but significantly? probably not, especially in the short/medium term.

(selling the same movie to the same person but "in 4k" is obviously profitable, as-is selling some more 4k TVs... but the problems of the TV division are reportedly much deeper than this)

Prophecy2k said:
If the PS4 becomes a breakaway success like the PS1/2 was, or even if it just manages to sell of the order of 80-100million units is its lifetime, those are all platforms through which Sony can bring in more revenue to their media businesses by pushing content on said device. Additionally, if PS4 has voice recognition, some fancy camera and handsfree UI control functionality, then these are all things that can be provided by the PS4 that "enhances" the consumption of Sony pictures/music content, uniquely driving sales for those business arms through a means that requires no sharing of those revenues with external platforms/companies/3rd parties.
Click to expand...

Sony's 'Video unlimited' service already supports:
- BRAVIA® Televisions
- Blu-ray Home Theatre Systems
- Windows-based PCs through Media Go
- Xperia(TM) Mobile Phones
- Blu-ray Disc(TM) Players
- Sony Internet TV powered by Google TV
- PlayStation®3 Systems
- PSP® (PlayStation®Portable) systems
- Sony Tablets

The PS4 will certainly support movies/music, but neither the movie nor music divisions will be worried if Orbis fails spectacularly.

(I'd also suspect that most 4k TVs are smartTVs - which makes the whole concept of selling content via a PS4 a bit weird)

Prophecy2k said:
Even Sony electronics can benefit from a PS4 that is designed to somehow interface with Sony phones, e-readers, Vaio laptops, cameras, camcorders etc etc. If the functionality added is appealing to consumers, and can drive the uptake of those products through their association with the PS4, then its a good thing for Sony's business.
Click to expand...

The success/failure of Orbis is absolutely *key* to Sony's gaming division. Sony have a lot of money invested in a lot of studios that need to produce content for a platform - and given the state of Vita, that platform has to be Orbis... If Orbis fails then "downscaling" seems highly likely.

For the other Sony divisions, there's a potential for a marginal advantage if Orbis succeeds. If Orbis fails, it doesn't make any huge difference to their profits.

Strategically, financially, Sony need a successful "games console". They don't really need yet another home entertainment device.
 
I would for a sec bring discussion as step back on the Display ScanOutDevice Engine. (DSODE)
My question is: what if the DSODE is there for 3D?
If that is the case I can imagine the 2D resolution being 4K.
I don't expect 4K honestly, but still 4K is in Sony's interest and I remember a rumor/leak about PS4 running 1080p 60fps in 3D so maybe it could be this way.
 
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dumbo11 said:
4K video will help Sony TV/movies... but significantly? probably not, especially in the short/medium term.

(selling the same movie to the same person but "in 4k" is obviously profitable, as-is selling some more 4k TVs... but the problems of the TV division are reportedly much deeper than this)



Sony's 'Video unlimited' service already supports:
- BRAVIA® Televisions
- Blu-ray Home Theatre Systems
- Windows-based PCs through Media Go
- Xperia(TM) Mobile Phones
- Blu-ray Disc(TM) Players
- Sony Internet TV powered by Google TV
- PlayStation®3 Systems
- PSP® (PlayStation®Portable) systems
- Sony Tablets

The PS4 will certainly support movies/music, but neither the movie nor music divisions will be worried if Orbis fails spectacularly.

(I'd also suspect that most 4k TVs are smartTVs - which makes the whole concept of selling content via a PS4 a bit weird)



The success/failure of Orbis is absolutely *key* to Sony's gaming division. Sony have a lot of money invested in a lot of studios that need to produce content for a platform - and given the state of Vita, that platform has to be Orbis... If Orbis fails then "downscaling" seems highly likely.

For the other Sony divisions, there's a potential for a marginal advantage if Orbis succeeds. If Orbis fails, it doesn't make any huge difference to their profits.

Strategically, financially, Sony need a successful "games console". They don't really need yet another home entertainment device.
Click to expand...

Now I see the main point you are trying to put across. I totally agree with you. Sony's gaming division needs PS4 to be a hit gaming console, and not necessarily a hit entertainment system. Whereas if it manages to be successful at both, like the PS2 was, it'll certainly benefit all other arms of their business, however the other businesses don't hinge off its success.
 
dumbo11 said:
4K video will help Sony TV/movies... but significantly? probably not, especially in the short/medium term.

(selling the same movie to the same person but "in 4k" is obviously profitable, as-is selling some more 4k TVs... but the problems of the TV division are reportedly much deeper than this)



Sony's 'Video unlimited' service already supports:
- BRAVIA® Televisions
- Blu-ray Home Theatre Systems
- Windows-based PCs through Media Go
- Xperia(TM) Mobile Phones
- Blu-ray Disc(TM) Players
- Sony Internet TV powered by Google TV
- PlayStation®3 Systems
- PSP® (PlayStation®Portable) systems
- Sony Tablets

The PS4 will certainly support movies/music, but neither the movie nor music divisions will be worried if Orbis fails spectacularly.

(I'd also suspect that most 4k TVs are smartTVs - which makes the whole concept of selling content via a PS4 a bit weird)



The success/failure of Orbis is absolutely *key* to Sony's gaming division. Sony have a lot of money invested in a lot of studios that need to produce content for a platform - and given the state of Vita, that platform has to be Orbis... If Orbis fails then "downscaling" seems highly likely.

For the other Sony divisions, there's a potential for a marginal advantage if Orbis succeeds. If Orbis fails, it doesn't make any huge difference to their profits.

Strategically, financially, Sony need a successful "games console". They don't really need yet another home entertainment device.
Click to expand...
I agree only to some extend. The Playstation brand is actually more important than it looks.
Its one occasion where the success and brand awareness in one product increases the awareness in other products and loyalty towards the company that produces it.
The Playstation brand itself grew Sony's popularity, it added to the Sony Brand loyalty.

The huge success of one product increases the awareness towards and probability of success of other products. A good experience on one creates trust towards another from the same company because people will look for other products produced by the same company and they expect to have the positive experience repeated

Its like a cross marketing, word of mouth moving from one product/service to the other.

The failure of a once highly successful product affects negatively the awareness and loyalty towards the other products. The bad experience of such failure leaves a much bigger bitter taste to the consumer than a product that came and disappeared before anyone would take serious notice. That bitter taste needs time before people would forget.

The Playstation has been iconic and tied to Sony's name. When the Playstation is viewed as a quality product thats where you expect to experience the other services. And when these are implemented well on the next Playstation and the console is also a very good product to support well those services/products, they cross market each other. They cross-promote
 
It's also worth noticing that PlayStation is abut the only strong Brand Sony has left, I think. they ahven't anything like Trinitron or Walkman any more, and the likes of Bravia and Xperia aren't taking the world by storm. PlayStation still has some brand punch.
 
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