News & Rumours: Playstation 4/ Orbis *spin*

[rockaman]

See? Even long time PlayStation owners don't know it's there lol.

We have to keep in mind not only hardcore, twenty-something gamers play PlayStation.

Simple functions like pressure sensitivity can add to the quality of the interface, even in the most seemingly pointless ways, and can go a long way to be appreciated simply by an average gamer not even giving a second thought it's there.

Sure, pressure sensitivity isn't 'that' special, but it can still add a layer to the human-computer interface that otherwise isn't there. Maybe I was the only one, but being able to crudely manage the throttle in GTASA over not being able to do so helped me as a player suspend my disbelief that I could really be controlling that car in 1990's L.A. It's not a matter of what we can do without in this case, it's just a matter of not taking steps backwards in the human-computer interface when there is no strong prima facie, economic or otherwise, to trump that value in the interface.

That value is not measurable. Immeasurable, but not to be discounted.

 

[patsu]

Pressure sensitive button (The big oval one) probably works better for Move games.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

That value is not measurable. Immeasurable, but not to be discounted.

Business choices aren't comfortable with immeasurable costs and returns. I'm one of those who deftly feathered the throttle on the X button in GT2 and GT3. I did use the analogue feature, in the one franchise. It's a feature that's almost zero use though, with even less utilisation than Sixaxis control. Hardly any games used analogue buttons, and hardly any gamers are aware. How do you justify to the suits an added cost that won't be used and your users are oblivious to? I know of a couple of uses for analogue controls, which are progressive brake/accelerate, and raise gun/fire. These map to analogue triggers just fine. Why then the need for analogue face-buttons? Especially when you add in a touch pad for menu interfaces, plus you still have the analogue sticks for page scrolling, etc.

I'm not saying get rid of them, but I am saying don't be surprised if they do go. 99% of the PS populace won't know the difference, and if the cost is notable (few dollars a controller), it'd be a good business decision.

 

[Cjail]

Speaking of costs, does anyone know how much pressure sensitive buttons cost?
Because after 13 years I would be very surprised if they were still very expensive to manufacture for Sony.

Anyway PS3 was re-designed 2 times which proves that Sony can find ways to reduce costs without removing features.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Speaking of costs, does anyone know how much pressure sensitive buttons cost?
Because after 13 years I would be very surprised if they were still very expensive for Sony.

They may not be very expensive, but any unnecessary cost is a waste. Paying for a feature, even if it's only 10 cents per SKU to include, is bad business if your market doesn't value that feature.

Anyway PS3 was re-designed 2 times which proves that Sony can find ways to reduce costs without removing features.

Sony removed HW BC, 2 USB ports and the flash card reader from the high end SKU. They also achieved the major cost reductions by shrinking the chips, which is different to saving costs at launch. Compare PS3 to the original prototype shown by Ken Kutaragi and we see loads more components removed (dual HDMI, three Ethernet, etc.) and we see cost cutting measures to remove features that don't add notable value to the platform.

 

[rockaman]

Business choices aren't comfortable with immeasurable costs and returns. I'm one of those who deftly feathered the throttle on the X button in GT2 and GT3. I did use the analogue feature, in the one franchise. It's a feature that's almost zero use though, with even less utilisation than Sixaxis control. Hardly any games used analogue buttons, and hardly any gamers are aware.

It's not measurable. That is half the point. Engineering is about measuring. In business, you have to sell. You have to have confidence. You need to be more open to risk. Engineers can calculate, measure your risk profile. You can't in business, yet Sony made the decision.

Because Kaz Hirai was once VP of SCE.

Because Shuhei Yoshida is now president of SCEWWS. And because he is a professed gamer who plays all the games.

Seeing value in business is not about measuring always. It's also having confidence in a decision and confidence in intangibles.

I understand the desire by a forum of engineers to measure every last bit of decisions made here. And you are right Sony can consider taking them out to save money.

But if I'm a betting man, and I do my fair share of speculation, those pressure sensitive buttons are still in. Possibly for no other reason than there are probably many other ways to save money than micromanage the probably most profitable item in the PlayStation shopping list.

The fixation on pressure sensitive buttons is premature, even you have to admit that.

And I will have to strongly disagree that a touchpad in the centre of the controller, or anywhere for that matter, can be a substitute for analogue control on face buttons resting under the thumb. You can't do fine, rapid pressute sensitive manipulation between two points without tactile feedback on a flat surface.

Unless you want to direct me to the corresponding iPad and Android games which provide the dexterity of the DualShock. As far as I know, GTA3 and GTAVC are just not fun on the iPad or Nexus series, not least of all because there is no comparable way to control the throttle.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It's not measurable. That is half the point. Engineering is about measuring. In business, you have to sell. You have to have confidence. You need to be more open to risk. Engineers can calculate, measure your risk profile. You can't in business, yet Sony made the decision.

But you can. You use polls and consumer groups and use metrics. You look at what percent of a library used the pressure sensitive feature over the past decade. If it's less than 1%, you've a very clear case that it's unimportant.

The fixation on pressure sensitive buttons is premature, even you have to admit that.

Strong word, fixation. It's just a current line of topic (all others having been exhausted!) based on a comment made in a rumour. I wouldn't be surprised if pressure sensitive buttons are still in, but I wouldn't be surprised to the contrary either. It's certainly a sound business choice to drop them as contributing very little to the platform.

And I will have to strongly disagree that a touchpad in the centre of the controller, or anywhere for that matter, can be a substitute for analogue control on face buttons resting under the thumb.

I didn't say it was. there are triggers for the immediate analogue input. For things like scrolling around a web page, the touch pad is way better than analogue face buttons.

 

[Averagejoe]

I vaguely remember PS3 can connect up to 7 USB devices but I can't find any reference.

It was bluetooth controllers.

There is even 1 or 2 games that support the whole 7.

 

[upnorthsox]

But you can. You use polls and consumer groups and use metrics. You look at what percent of a library used the pressure sensitive feature over the past decade. If it's less than 1%, you've a very clear case that it's unimportant.

Strong word, fixation. It's just a current line of topic (all others having been exhausted!) based on a comment made in a rumour. I wouldn't be surprised if pressure sensitive buttons are still in, but I wouldn't be surprised to the contrary either. It's certainly a sound business choice to drop them as contributing very little to the platform.

I didn't say it was. there are triggers for the immediate analogue input. For things like scrolling around a web page, the touch pad is way better than analogue face buttons.

Your whole point rests on the assumption that analog ps switches are more expensive for Sony to include, is that in fact true? If it is then why have they continued using them?

 

[Jedi2016]

I'm constantly amazed by people that believe that the buttons on a controller are the only way to play GT.

Did no one think to map accelerate/brake to the right analog stick? I've been playing GT that way since the very first game.

The reason most people don't realize the buttons are analog is because there are practically zero games that support the feature. I can see that on third-party titles, where the buttons have to work on X360 (those aren't analog... are they?). But most exclusive or first-party games don't use it, either. If you don't use it, it's very easy for people to forget that it's there.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Your whole point rests on the assumption that analog ps switches are more expensive for Sony to include, is that in fact true?

I have no way of knowing either way. However, I'm not contending they'll be removed. According to the latest rumours, they are being removed. If true, the only logical reason is because they are more expensive. Or, I suppose, they are no longer obtainable as no-one uses them.

If it is then why have they continued using them?

Up until now they considered them of value. Every once in a while you re-evaluate, and priorities change. Also Sony are adding alternative inputs, meaning now's a good time for a complete controller reconsideration rather than just adding more and more to a design. Decide what really needs to stay and what can go, and optimise.

 

[MrFox]

It could be simply a restriction in the API and the controller still has them for BC.
If they want cloud gaming, and remote play on the Vita, tablets, etc... maybe letting devs use the pressure buttons was a world of pain for control portability, it's difficult to remap them in a screen. It's the only thing that can't be mapped on the Vita right now.

 

[Cjail]

@Shifty Geezer

What you or me deem unnecessary is not what Sony deems unnecessary.
Touchpad, mic/speaker, motion sensor headphone jack can be considered unnecessary for a controller but Sony added them nonetheless.

In economical therms then surely you are right to say that unnecessary costs are a waste, I won't argue with you on that because I agree, but I don' agree that the philosophy behind the DS 4 is so much about "keep/do only what is necessary".
I think Sony's philosophy behind the DS4 is to delver their most versatile and complete controller at toady.

Now it is a fact that many games don't have pressure sensitive controls, I won't argue about that, but I dare to say that pressure sensitive buttons make the DualShock a more sophisticated, pass me the expression, controller.
When good devs like Kojima Production or Polyphony add pressure controls I see the benefits of having that technology.
The motion controls features of the DS 3 are largely unused as well but when good devs used them they work well (Flower, Journey, Arkahm City/Asylum, Killzone 2)

I see the benefits of having as many options/features as possible on a controller, from touchpad to pressure sensitive buttons, even when they are unnecessary or very unused and I believe Sony does too.
This is why I asked the cost of the pressure sensitive buttons because if it is contained Sony then surely will gladly keep them, even it is anti-economical, just becse having them makes the DS 4 a more complete product, a better product...form certain point of view of course.

P.S.
DS 4 without pressure sensitive buttons is not the world for me, let me be clear about this.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

When good devs like Kojima Production or Polyphony add pressure controls I see the benefits of having that technology.
The motion controls features of the DS 3 are largely unused as well but when good devs used them they work well (Flower, Journey, Arkahm City/Asylum, Killzone 2)

But they'd still have them on the triggers! Do we really need analogue on the face buttons? Two, maybe four, analogue inputs, in addition to the analogue sticks, is ample for any but the most fringe cases.

This is why I asked the cost of the pressure sensitive buttons because if it is contained Sony then surely will gladly keep them, even it is anti-economical, just becse having them makes the DS 4 a more complete product, a better product...form certain point of view of course.

Having six USB port and a memcard reader would make PS3 a better product too. Adding more features makes for a better product. It also makes for a more costly one. You have to draw the line somewhere, and with a decade of use statistics for analogue face-buttons, Sony will be well informed on whether they contribute to the controller or not.

 

[Grall]

Or, I suppose, they are no longer obtainable as no-one uses them.

The device itself is basically just a standard rubber dome switch, hooked up to - I presume - an ADC or maybe an amp meter in the controller IC to measure the voltage or resistance across the circuit; nothing special about it really. There shouldn't be any special parts needed, other than the ASIC that goes into the controller, and those aren't exactly in limited supply. Sony can have as many as they pay to have made...

It is a very under-utilized feature however. It might not be that Sony would save particularly much money on dropping analog buttons, it could simply be that the feature was deemed pretty much entirely superflous. ...Which it is, really, despite a game here or there using analog buttons.

After all, analog face buttons are merely carpal tunnel accelerators for the most part, rather than the intended useful human/machine interface feature.

 

[Cjail]

@Shifty Geezer

I agree with you that at some point Sony had to decide what too keep and what to discard AND I also see that keeping pressure sensitive buttons means more options for devs, which is good/gret for creativity BUT still I know is an anti-economical and unpractical solution for Sony because they are objectively now underused.

At this point I have embraced both sides of the argument and whatever happens I will be fine

 

[AlphaWolf]

You don't want to be wasting resources on features that benefit very few. I don't know how much it costs for the feature, but I expect the payoff is very low. Most people don't even know it exists.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

At this point I'd take the inclusion/exclusion as indicative of feature cost. If it costs nothing more to add analogue sensitivity, Sony will keep it. If they switch to digital button, there must be a cost factor involved.

 

[rockaman]

Shifty let's just shake hands and agree to disagree

We'll make a friendly bet out of it, more fun than just speculating.

I can't say you're wrong after all, the bigwigs might take to anything and change it.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Speaking of costs, does anyone know how much pressure sensitive buttons cost?
Because after 13 years I would be very surprised if they were still very expensive to manufacture for Sony.

It's likely to be significantly more expensive than digital on/off buttons. It's mechanically more complicated which inherently makes it more expensive. But that isn't the main driver of increased cost.

The fact that digital controller buttons are fairly ubiquitous (almost every controller uses them) while analog controller buttons aren't (relatively few, if we're being generous, use them) means that the economies of scale aren't nowhere near as good for analog buttons as they are for digital buttons.

In other words, it's very easy to source cheap and well made digital buttons because everything uses them. Analog buttons, are going to be harder to source which are both cheap and well made just because they are relatively more rare. Where you may have 10's of millions of analog buttons made each year, you'll likely have 100's of millions or even billions of digital buttons made each year.

What you or me deem unnecessary is not what Sony deems unnecessary.
Touchpad, mic/speaker, motion sensor headphone jack can be considered unnecessary for a controller but Sony added them nonetheless.

The thing is, Sony's development and planning team can see a use case for those things.

Touchpad is potentially key for UI and app navigation for the set top box living room experience. Something that will be key for both console vendors.

Microphone could be key if they wish to pursue voice commands, universal voice chat etc.

Analog buttons? Historically (looking at just PS3) their use case has been extremely limited. When you can't even get the majority of your first party developers to use it and none of the third party developers are going to make use of it, why include an unnecessary cost? Sure, they may keep them, but if they did it would be purely for nostalgia reasons and for no justifiable business reason. As there's even less likelihood that they would be used on PS4 than they were on PS3.

Basically, Sony's R&D group has historical data in PS3 usage numbers that shows analog buttons likely don't justify the cost of inclusion. Not when there's better things they could implement that would make better use of those cost savings.

And here, PS2 usage numbers don't matter. Those numbers mattered for deciding whether to include them on PS3. Usage during the PS3 generation is the only thing that will matter when considering whether to include them in PS4 or not.

Regards,
SB