News & Rumours: Playstation 4/ Orbis *spin*

[djskribbles]

You get the option to choose Automatic, Limited, or Full for both the RGB output and the YCbCr. There is also a menu that you can only access when you are watching a film and that allows you to tweak the output as well.

Yup, I'm aware there are RGB/YCbCr Full/Limited/Auto settings, but I wasn't aware that there's a separate menu during playback. I'll have to see what options there are and do some more testing. In the PS4 menu, there's no option to switch the colorspace from YCbCr to RGB for Blu-Ray/disc-based video that I could see.

The YCbCr Full/Limited setting has me puzzled. At first I thought it was simply the YCbCr super-white setting with a different label, which basically enabled the PS3 to output blacker than black/whiter than white (levels below 16 and above 235). But I was able to see BTB/WTW with the PS4 set to Limited or Full. So I'm not quite sure what this setting does. Maybe it upsamples the chroma information when set to Full, I dunno. Technically there is no such thing as YCbCr full range.

edit: The menu during playback doesn't offer any any option to adjust the colorspace. I did find an option to switch between bitstream and PCM audio though, which is nice, but totally unrelated.

 

[Gradthrawn]

The months come and go and no major features are added. All we see are what appears to be maintenance updates, bug fixes. There's not even any timetable of major features to be added, or hints of a timetable. At this stage, who the hell knows if or when we'll see the already announced features.

Based on your response it would appear you fall into the latter category. That being someone frustrated by the lack of transparency in the update process and the lack of a roadmap. Quite understandable and in stark contrast to your earlier post. I was more curious if the people who made such rants believed what they were saying or were just frustrated. I now have one such example.

 

[Phil]

Because BR aren't even encoded as RGB.

That's all well and good, but the reason to have a setting to switch between RGB and YCbCr is to make sure that both display (TV) and player (PS4 etc) match. I would assume if you had a setting to output RGB, that YCbCr content would be recalculated into RGB ranges (even if you're not enhancing the quality one bit). The goal is not to get better quality on YCbCr content but to remain consistent with your display.

 

[London Geezer]

That's all well and good, but the reason to have a setting to switch between RGB and YCbCr is to make sure that both display (TV) and player (PS4 etc) match. I would assume if you had a setting to output RGB, that YCbCr content would be recalculated into RGB ranges (even if you're not enhancing the quality one bit). The goal is not to get better quality on YCbCr content but to remain consistent with your display.

Blurays should always output at YCbCr.

 

[Phil]

Blurays should always output at YCbCr.

Even when, on the PS3, you switch the setting to "deep color: on"? I haven't really tried tested this, but IMO this would be a faulty way to do things - since anyone who turns that option on, will have set their display device to RGB as well, causing erratic color ranges across different content (XMB, games, movies).

On HTPC this is a common problem - as there are many HTPCs that default to RGB color range. I am also pretty sure that playing a Bluray or any video content with YCbCr on a [Windows] computer will have the colour range converted to RGB as that is the native output of the graphics card/OS and usually the computer monitor.

It would be a joke to switch on deep color (aka RGB) on a PS3 only for it to work using the XMB and the games.

 

[London Geezer]

Even when, on the PS3, you switch the setting to "deep color: on"? I haven't really tried tested this, but IMO this would be a faulty way to do things - since anyone who turns that option on, will have set their display device to RGB as well, causing erratic color ranges across different content (XMB, games, movies).

On HTPC this is a common problem - as there are many HTPCs that default to RGB color range. I am also pretty sure that playing a Bluray or any video content with YCbCr on a [Windows] computer will have the colour range converted to RGB as that is the native output of the graphics card/OS and usually the computer monitor.

It would be a joke to switch on deep color (aka RGB) on a PS3 only for it to work using the XMB and the games.

YCbCr will display at the extended range if you enable Super White, which is only for that output.
That's different from the Full/Limited RGB discussion as it's another output.

To be honest this whole full/limited/RGB blah blah discussion, we're talking about differences we wouldn't be able to discern anyway, if at all.

I watched Avatar in 3D last night, and Man of Steel in 2D the other night - my set is calibrated and I really can't see how either of them would look 'better' than they already do, knowing what my TV can do. Then again I do have Super White enabled on the PS3. I honestly don't think there was any difference from when I watched similar 'big' Blurays, while not having super white enabled.

As for games, ultimately the image quality is dictated by the game itself and most definitely not by whether you select Full or Limited.

Deep colour as far as I know makes even less difference and only works with some Sony TVs. Could be wrong.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

There's a difference between movies and games though in that the movies are compressed. Perhaps the real on-screen image is imperceptibly different between limited and full RGB, but common sense and a scientific mind tells us that the same standard across all device and media will make things a lot more compatible and less complicated. We shouldn't distinguish between computers and TVs any more - they're all the same. TV is shown on both, as are computer-generated sources. We should also ditch 50fps video and everyone move to 60fps, with 60fps capturing on all cameras and 60fps playback in RGB space on mobiles, PCs, and TVs. At the moment we have a bloody ridiculous mess of supporting playback and encoding formats, with all sorts of hassle in getting devices to cooperate and provide the best (or even just correct) experience. Best way to solve that is to move on from legacy standard that are holding everyone back. Every device should be full RGB output and input, with colour upscaling for old content.

 

[DrJay24]

Here at PlayStation, we listen closely to your comments and requests, which are weighted heavily when looking at the future of our platforms. Since PlayStation 4 launched, we’ve heard a lot of great feedback from you about what you like with the platform and what you’d like to see us work on.

I’m happy to report that, as a direct result of your feedback, we’ll soon be bringing some of your most-requested features to PS4 with a system software update in the upcoming weeks. These features and additions will help make your PS4 even more socially connected by further enabling you to customise your most epic gaming moments and granting even more options to show them to your friends.

This upcoming update will add a rich video editor with a simple tool to personalise your video clips, and you’ll also be able to export to and save the videos and screenshots you create by pressing the SHARE button to a USB drive. In addition, this update will add an HDCP off option for capturing gameplay via HDMI, a feature we’ve previously said would come after launch.

We recognise that some gamers want to record and share longer clips of their gameplay sessions, and we’re excited to deliver this option with PS4. There’s a lot more coming in this update as well, so stay tuned for more — there will be plenty in the update to excite everyone.

As part of a separate system software update in the future, we have been working with our partners at Twitch and Ustream, and will also be adding the ability for Twitch broadcasts to be archived – another highly requested feature among PS4 fans who are taking advantage of the SHARE button features. These broadcasts will be also provided with a higher resolution of 720p, so PS4 fans can enjoy live broadcasts with clearer images. We’ll have more to come on these updates and more in the coming weeks.

http://blog.eu.playstation.com/2014/03/19/new-ps4-update-add-share-enhancements-hdcp/

 

[BoardBonobo]

http://blog.eu.playstation.com/2014/03/19/new-ps4-update-add-share-enhancements-hdcp/

Now that sounds like an update worth waiting for.

 

[Shortbread]

Gief fucking 3D blu-ray support already!

Also, full-range RGB support, remote control support. Ability to turn off the stupid lightbar when camera is not in use.

Sony is dropping the ball seriously on firmware development. What the shit are they doing on that front? Seemingly nothing, is the company really losing so much money they have to skimp on everything?

What???

Seriously???

Full-Range RGB is working for me since December 2013.

Are you sure you own a PS4 or just a shi**y TV?

 

[London Geezer]

There's a difference between movies and games though in that the movies are compressed. Perhaps the real on-screen image is imperceptibly different between limited and full RGB, but common sense and a scientific mind tells us that the same standard across all device and media will make things a lot more compatible and less complicated. We shouldn't distinguish between computers and TVs any more - they're all the same. TV is shown on both, as are computer-generated sources. We should also ditch 50fps video and everyone move to 60fps, with 60fps capturing on all cameras and 60fps playback in RGB space on mobiles, PCs, and TVs. At the moment we have a bloody ridiculous mess of supporting playback and encoding formats, with all sorts of hassle in getting devices to cooperate and provide the best (or even just correct) experience. Best way to solve that is to move on from legacy standard that are holding everyone back. Every device should be full RGB output and input, with colour upscaling for old content.

Yeah well shoulda woulda coulda! Reality is that we're still stuck with a ridiculous amount of overlapping, redundant, legacy standards. Look at 4k! They already have different standards for that. Plus add to the mix TV manufacturers gimping perfectly capable products according to location and there you have it. It's just hopeless.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Also, full-range RGB support, remote control support. Ability to turn off the stupid lightbar when camera is not in use.

My TV remote controls my PlayStation 4, even in the OS/Home Screen. I'm assuming its using HDMI CEC. So if you have a TV with HMDI CEC support and the remote is fairly fully featured, you may find it works when enabled.

 

[djskribbles]

That's all well and good, but the reason to have a setting to switch between RGB and YCbCr is to make sure that both display (TV) and player (PS4 etc) match. I would assume if you had a setting to output RGB, that YCbCr content would be recalculated into RGB ranges (even if you're not enhancing the quality one bit). The goal is not to get better quality on YCbCr content but to remain consistent with your display.

In some cases RGB looks slightly better on some displays than YCbCr, but again, YCbCr looks better 99% of the time.

With that said, there are some displays where the RGB Range setting on the TV affects YCbCr inputs when it should only affect RGB inputs. So if you use your PS3/PS4 for Blu-Ray/games, this forces you to use Limited RGB for games unless you want to keep switching the RGB range setting on your TV. Most TVs I've used, the RGB range setting only affects YCbCr signals, so it's safe to use RGB Full range for games and YCbCr for Blu-Ray.

I'd imagine people using PC monitors will run into issues playing Blu-Rays because they're all RGB Full range. So yes, it would be nice for an option to select between YCbCr and RGB for Blu-Ray/disc-based video like the PS3 did.

Even when, on the PS3, you switch the setting to "deep color: on"? I haven't really tried tested this, but IMO this would be a faulty way to do things - since anyone who turns that option on, will have set their display device to RGB as well, causing erratic color ranges across different content (XMB, games, movies).

Blu-Ray movies don't even take advantage of deep color, they're all encoded to 8-bit YCbCr 4:2:0 16-235. There's almost no content that takes advantage of deep color.

On HTPC this is a common problem - as there are many HTPCs that default to RGB color range. I am also pretty sure that playing a Bluray or any video content with YCbCr on a [Windows] computer will have the colour range converted to RGB as that is the native output of the graphics card/OS and usually the computer monitor.

Yes, HTPCs are different from the PS3/PS4 or any Blu-Ray player. While some videocards have an option for YCbCr output, all GPUs will convert any input to RGB. Therefore, outputting YCbCr just adds another conversion. RGB is the recommended output for PCs, Full Range if your display supports it.

 

[Phil]

I think this is getting a bit chaotic now. Let me clarify again:

PS3 has an option to set display mode to RGB full range (0-255) or limited (16-235). I was under the impression, though I have not checked, that when you set this option to full range, that everything outputed from the PS3 will in fact be fullrange (0-255), including games, XMB and Bluray content (that is encoded in 8-bit YCbCr 4:2:0 16-235).

True or false?

The whole purpose in even giving the option on a player to choose between limited and fullrange is not to enhance qualty of already encoded (static) material, but to get identical settings between player and display screen. If your display devices requires the full range, it's beneficial to have an option to set the player to that (or you'll have black crush) or if your display requires limited range (16-235) to set the player accoardingly.

I know Bluray content is natively to 8-bit YCbCr. My big question was specifically in regards to PS3s option and if that option changes anything to the output when watching these movies.

 

[djskribbles]

PS3 has an option to set display mode to RGB full range (0-255) or limited (16-235). I was under the impression, though I have not checked, that when you set this option to full range, that everything outputed from the PS3 will in fact be fullrange (0-255), including games, XMB and Bluray content (that is encoded in 8-bit YCbCr 4:2:0 16-235).

True or false?

True, IF you select RGB output for Blu-Ray. On PS3, you can choose between YCbCr or RGB for Blu-Ray, on PS4 you can't. Games/XMB/PDM always output RGB regardless. It would be nice to add this setting on PS4 because I'd imagine people using their PS4s for Blu-Ray and are using PC monitors will have milky blacks (16-235 output, 0-255 display), although I haven't tried myself.

The whole purpose in even giving the option on a player to choose between limited and fullrange is not to enhance qualty of already encoded (static) material, but to get identical settings between player and display screen. If your display devices requires the full range, it's beneficial to have an option to set the player to that (or you'll have black crush) or if your display requires limited range (16-235) to set the player accoardingly.

Pretty much yes. The RGB range setting was pretty much added to the PS3 for compatibility purposes (namely PC monitors).

I know Bluray content is natively to 8-bit YCbCr. My big question was specifically in regards to PS3s option and if that option changes anything to the output when watching these movies.

If you select YCbCr, it will output as is... 16-235 YCbCr (maybe upsampled to 4:2:2 or 4:4:4, not sure what the PS3/PS4 do). In this case, the RGB range setting has no affect on Blu-Ray because it's not an RGB output, the RGB range setting only affects games/XMB/PDM. If you select RGB output for Blu-Ray (PS3 only) it will convert to RGB and now the RGB Range setting does affect Blu-Ray, and games/XMB/Blu-Ray will all output RGB, all at the same range. Depending on if you select Limited or Full, it will either map black/white to 16/235 (Limited) or map black/white to 0-255 (Full).

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Do TVs switch from full range RGB to limited YCbCr automatically according to data passing over the HDMI? I'd have thought that they don't, and you'd get limited-range material appearing with low contrast when using full range RGB for games.

 

[djskribbles]

Do TVs switch from full range RGB to limited YCbCr automatically according to data passing over the HDMI? I'd have thought that they don't, and you'd get limited-range material appearing with low contrast when using full range RGB for games.

Depends on the TV. I only have experience with Samsung, LG and Panasonic displays. This is how each behave:

Panasonic:
HDMI/DVI RGB Range has no affect on YCbCr signals. You can change the setting, but the picture doesn't change. So I can safely output YCbCr for Blu-Ray and use RGB Full Range for games.

Samsung:
HDMI Black Level is grayed out for YCbCr signals, so you can safely use YCbCr for Blu-Ray and RGB Full Range for games.

LG:
HDMI Black Level affects all signals. Therefore, you have to use RGB Limited if you're using YCbCr for Blu-Ray. Or in the PS3's case, you have to set Blu-Ray to RGB if you want to use Full Range.

Some displays have an Auto setting, but this is hit and miss in my experience. My Panasonic correctly detects the input RGB range from the PS4, but not the PS3.

 

[BoardBonobo]

Do TVs switch from full range RGB to limited YCbCr automatically according to data passing over the HDMI? I'd have thought that they don't, and you'd get limited-range material appearing with low contrast when using full range RGB for games.

I've just replaced my elderly Bravia KDL40W3000 with a Bravia KDL42W653 (as it has the lowest gaming lag out there ~7ms) and it swaps depending on the input. That includes bit depth et al

Plus all the HDMI control stuff works out of the box. Switch my PS3 or PS4 on and the TV and Receiver both switch on. Switch the TV off and everything else powers down too, unless it's doing something.

 

[-tkf-]

This is a great discussion, you should try to see it from the other side where you have the exact same challenges when you edit in avid, final cut, premiere and import / export footage from different cameras in different codes and containers.. Not to mention the different media players on the different computer platforms, video cards and monitors

 

[Phil]

djskribbles,

Many many thanks. Great info there. I am have to admit, I've been a bit confused. Up until now, I assumed the "color space" on my Sony projector (VPL-HW15) refered to the RGB full / limited specification. I am now finding out (by testing) that it isn't and it must be something else. Unfortunately, the manual does not give any clear information what it is. (I am currently fighting my HTPC's shoddy intel drivers to get a normal picture without crushed blacks yet while retaining a setting that works for my HTPC and PS4 ).