News and Rumours: PS4

[Shifty Geezer]

If PS4 is a $1 billion project, that has to be with a view to wider technologies IMO, as part of the One Sony vision. An SOC architecture that can be used in other devices, or something. Cell wasn't efficient enough in graphics work to do that, but an SOC with GPU would be. As BoardBonobo says, the current financial siuation doesn't necessarily mean Sony are our of pocket to develop PS4, because it could be the expense of developing PS4 that has them in this situation. The concerns come post-PS4, and what Sony can do with the technologies they've invested in. If there isn't a landmark system they can leverage to gain market share in various markets, then they're sunk.

 

[jonabbey]

If PS4 is a $1 billion project, that has to be with a view to wider technologies IMO, as part of the One Sony vision. An SOC architecture that can be used in other devices, or something. Cell wasn't efficient enough in graphics work to do that, but an SOC with GPU would be. As BoardBonobo says, the current financial siuation doesn't necessarily mean Sony are our of pocket to develop PS4, because it could be the expense of developing PS4 that has them in this situation. The concerns come post-PS4, and what Sony can do with the technologies they've invested in. If there isn't a landmark system they can leverage to gain market share in various markets, then they're sunk.

I expect a 'Sony One' strategy would have to involve software, network services and marketing more than any SOC, wouldn't it?

A billlion on an integration project with someone else's IP doesn't make any sense. Particularly since AMD can't sublicense their rights to x86..

 

[onQ]

If PS4 is a $1 billion project, that has to be with a view to wider technologies IMO, as part of the One Sony vision. An SOC architecture that can be used in other devices, or something. Cell wasn't efficient enough in graphics work to do that, but an SOC with GPU would be. As BoardBonobo says, the current financial siuation doesn't necessarily mean Sony are our of pocket to develop PS4, because it could be the expense of developing PS4 that has them in this situation. The concerns come post-PS4, and what Sony can do with the technologies they've invested in. If there isn't a landmark system they can leverage to gain market share in various markets, then they're sunk.

from the interview & the new info about AMD' APU & GPU in the the PS4 I pick up that it's not just Sony spending $1 billion alone but Sony AMD & maybe some others working together to make this powerful SOC.

"The agenda he set out at IEDM was very much a call to arms for the silicon design community.
"Our strengths have always been in the integration," Tsuruta-san says. "We will have to work with a lot of third-party partners to make these things happen."
The headroom Sony will need to achieve all this - or even part of it, assuming that some things on its wishlist will not reach fruition in time - does help to explain why an announcement on the fourth generation PS is taking so long.
He describes the architecture in broad terms: "You are talking about powerful CPU and GPU with extra DSP and programmable logic."
This, and Sony's target of no more than 50ms latency even for 8k x 4k resolution at 300fps, clearly points to the need for a highly integrated TSV-based package - and so far TSV has stuttered in manufacturing for anything other than the stacking of like-on-like, typically memories.
In addition, Tsuruta-san has noted the difficulties in achieving viable yields at 28nm, though he believes that these problems are now moving towards a resolution.
"We are confident that we can now see a way and that we can use some of these advanced methods to create a new kind of system-on-chip. We think that there are the technologies today that can be taken to this project.”

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I expect a 'Sony One' strategy would have to involve software, network services and marketing more than any SOC, wouldn't it?

Of course. I highly doubt $1 billion is being spent developing just one SOC using AMD components. That'd be extremely poor economy on Sony's part!

 

[Silent_Buddha]

If PS4 is a $1 billion project, that has to be with a view to wider technologies IMO, as part of the One Sony vision. An SOC architecture that can be used in other devices, or something. Cell wasn't efficient enough in graphics work to do that, but an SOC with GPU would be. As BoardBonobo says, the current financial siuation doesn't necessarily mean Sony are our of pocket to develop PS4, because it could be the expense of developing PS4 that has them in this situation. The concerns come post-PS4, and what Sony can do with the technologies they've invested in. If there isn't a landmark system they can leverage to gain market share in various markets, then they're sunk.

There's also a possibility they are investing significantly in a full body camera control system similar to Microsoft's, only without infringing on too many patents which they would then have to try to license.

Regards,
SB

 

[ultragpu]

If Sony really spent 1billion on R&D then why are the current rumored spec so dire? Surely they can devote a major chunk of it to a monster GPU or CPU or a mountain full of RAM? Maybe this SOC is really something special.

 

[BoardBonobo]

If Sony really spent 1billion on R&D then why are the current rumored spec so dire? Surely they can devote a major chunk of it to a monster GPU or CPU or a mountain full of RAM? Maybe this SOC is really something special.

As with all rumours there is probably a hint of truth in them. Though the actual rumour itself is probably BS, a friend of a friend of a friend etc etc.

I guess if you read between the lines at what is possibly being hinted at you just get a powerful SoC that may share something in common with AMD's A8 e.g it may be a multi-core CPU with built in GPU and the GPU set-up may be based around the southern islands chipset or may exceed that specification.

IMO, Sony will be looking for a CPU (cluster) that is as strong as, or stronger than, the CELL but easier to program and this time they won't be leaving it to the 11th hour to slap a weak sauce GPU in the mix. The whole console landscape has changed within the PS3's lifetime, MS have shown just how important a strong 2nd tier is. The mobile market has expanded to touch the console world both in terms of visceral entertainment and hardware.

The PS3 has managed to keep it's head above water this time through having a strong brand image, though that has severely weakened with the PSN hacks etc, and through having the strongest 1st party devs this generation.

If we take the VIta as the lowest single denominator in the new Sony strategy then I don't think they will let their flagship product not rise head and shoulders above it.

 

[Rangers]

PS3 is above it, so that shouldn't be hard...4X PS3 would crush Vita but not necessarily be a satisfactory next gen.

 

[ultragpu]

If Sony really want to build things around developer's need as they have previously mentioned, then they would have listened whole heartedly to Dice, Epic and Crytek for their pursuit of processing power and ram. Sony don't want to screw up third party titles as badly as this gen, nor do they want to alienate the tech too much again, so like I already said, either they do it properly or don't do it at all until ready.

 

[BoardBonobo]

PS3 is above it, so that shouldn't be hard...4X PS3 would crush Vita but not necessarily be a satisfactory next gen.

Perhaps in pure power terms yes, but you're missing the point. It's not all about pretty pixels any more but about mechanisms of delivery and unified experiences. The Vita is a crazy mess of differing inputs and is tailored to be the baseline intro into PS gaming. But if Sony are doing this right they will be slotting the Vita experience into their Pads, Phones, Cameras, and Consoles.

I think they have already missed one target in that they were too precise about what the Vita is. They should have released it as a phone, same specs (apart from battery life) etc and left the twin sticks and pads as a plugin module. Slot the Vita in the middle and you have the same device only more useful.

 

[BoardBonobo]

If Sony really want to build things around developer's need as they have previously mentioned, then they would have listened whole heartedly to Dice, Epic and Crytek for their pursuit of processing power and ram. Sony don't want to screw up third party titles as badly as this gen, nor do they want to alienate the tech too much again, so like I already said, either they do it properly or don't do it at all until ready.

But the general tone of rumours going around would suggest that Sony has been listening quite hard to the needs of their developers. The problem will be if they have been listening too hard and not putting together a bigger picture.

 

[BoardBonobo]

Actually just thinking about it and looking at all the rumours that have been doing the rounds recently I wouldn't be surprised if:

a. MS is betting the farm on Windows 8 both in the mobile market and in the console space when backed up with the newer Kinnect hardware. They are going to have a huge number of battles to fight in the near future with Samsung, Sony, Apple and the rest.

b. Sony are factoring the PS4 as what the PS3 should have been and that is the hub to which all other devices connect (including the fridge...) and that SEN is going to merge with Steam as the distribution point for entertainment, explaining why a such a sudden shift in modus operandi from the hardware team. The PS4 is the Valve console. IMO Sony may have woken up and smelled the coffee, realising that they just can't compete with the whole picture but they can make very good hardware and offer a multimillion point distribution system to a potential partner.

 

[ultragpu]

But the general tone of rumours going around would suggest that Sony has been listening quite hard to the needs of their developers. The problem will be if they have been listening too hard and not putting together a bigger picture.

I hope they have listened, I just want some reliable fact to reflect that, certainly not a 7670 based gpu.

 

[rekator]

The PSteam 4 console would be a very interested move…
But don't think editors like, this from high price games to platform with lot of reduced price games?

 

[liolio]

Speaking of this interview:
http://mandetech.com/2012/01/10/sony...uta-interview/
below are the quote from M.Tsurata:

seven to 10 years

We have to look at two things

return-on-investment (ROI) and turnaround time (TAT).

So, you have to look at the current solutions and the current technologies and see how long you can extend those for the expected life of the product

You always want ‘perfect’ technologies but there are none. So, you look at what is available and try to get as close as possible to that goal. Even then, some of the things that we want are still five years away

For the haptics and the very advanced graphics, we are talking about those five years at least,

Our strengths have always been in the integration," Tsuruta-san says. "We will have to work with a lot of third-party partners to make these things happen.

ou are talking about powerful CPU and GPU with extra DSP and programmable logic.

We are confident that we can now see a way and that we can use some of these advanced methods to create a new kind of system-on-chip. We think that there are the technologies today that can be taken to this project.

We understand that for this, we will need to offer a very strong SDK. We will retain our own OS for the main games and support that with a development environment that is viable. For online and other features, we are also thinking of a simpler approach to a Linux-type environment than on the PlayStation 3

We think that the core games will continue to be the most important,” says Tsuruta-san

We don’t want to limit what people do on the console and we will have to do more on the server side, account for some aspects of thin client computing. Many people like the ability to play simultaneously, and when the networks are available we would like to open the platform up to more complex content through them. “But we will have to wait for a while because current networks have limitations in bandwidth. A typical PlayStation console game is 50GByte – transferring those kinds of size over most of today’s networks won’t work. But more important is the experience. The networks cannot yet deliver it.”

So I wish we had a more complete rendition of the interview because for all we know no one at Sony has made official statement on the ps4. I'm surprised that the CTO of Sony would have gone out in the wild to state what he stated.
The last quote is weird as the " " seem ill placed and you don't know clearly when Tsurata stop and the author start, there are difference in style vs previous statement between "rabbits".

Anyway assuming the quote are legit they say nothing about a lot of the authors assertions.
For me as long as there is not a more complete transcription of the Sony CTO in a reputable site.
I don't put much faith in quote and close to none in the authors assertions.
So stuff may even apply to Vita. It could be legit quote, but put together... clicks are money...

I were to give credit to the quote I would say the most interesting part is about the OS? other OS. X86 ensures that not only linux can run on the device but also android, chrome, etc.
So Sony may have at last the computer we've been promised decade ago

 

[Kb-Smoker]

http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/2011/12/maasaki-tsu-interview.cfm

Here is another article.

“You have to look at the current solutions and the current technologies and see how long you can extend those for the expected life of the product,” Tsuruta admits. “You always want ‘perfect’ technologies, but there are none. So, you look at what is available, and try to get as close as possible to that goal. Even then, some of the things that we want are still five years away [from development].”


“It took five years before we saw games that used the full power of Cell, so we are used to looking ahead and having capacity,” Tsuruta says. “We are looking at an architecture where the bulk of processing will still sit on the main board, with CPU and graphics added to by more digital signal processing and some configurable logic.”

 

[RobertR1]

Speaking of this interview:
http://mandetech.com/2012/01/10/sony...uta-interview/
below are the quote from M.Tsurata:
So I wish we had a more complete rendition of the interview because for all we know no one at Sony has made official statement on the ps4. I'm surprised that the CTO of Sony would have gone out in the wild to state what he stated.
The last quote is weird as the " " seem ill placed and you don't know clearly when Tsurata stop and the author start, there are difference in style vs previous statement between "rabbits".

Anyway assuming the quote are legit they say nothing about a lot of the authors assertions.
For me as long as there is not a more complete transcription of the Sony CTO in a reputable site.
I don't put much faith in quote and close to none in the authors assertions.
So stuff may even apply to Vita. It could be legit quote, but put together... clicks are money...

I were to give credit to the quote I would say the most interesting part is about the OS? other OS. X86 ensures that not only linux can run on the device but also android, chrome, etc.
So Sony may have at last the computer we've been promised decade ago

A typical PlayStation console game is 50GByte

He should pay more attention before talking?

 

[Acert93]

Maye he means disk? Are many of Sony's 1st party efforts now on dual layer disks?

 

[BoardBonobo]

Maye he means disk? Are many of Sony's 1st party efforts now on dual layer disks?

I think UC3 was the first to completely fill a 50Gb disc, but many of the recent develpoments from Rage onwards have used dual layer disc's.

 

[Akumajou]

PS3 is above it, so that shouldn't be hard...4X PS3 would crush Vita but not necessarily be a satisfactory next gen.

A 4X PS3 would have been possible if PS3 was planned for 2008 using a 65nm Cell BE and 55nm Nvidia G92 along with whatever ram price drops, tech upgrades would have made sense for a contract...

Then again the same could also be applied to a Xbox 360 planned for 2007.

Honestly these rumors suck...(both PS4/XboxLoop) I really prefer to just wait until the real announcements are made... for all we know these are just fantasies from an armchair tech fan or maybe just rough prototype hardware...

Is it so hard to imagine how much technology for mass production could improve by 2013-2014 and whats the rush?

Aside from piracy and the spoiled brat lawsuits wanting to enable piracy, don't 3rd parties actually benefit from releasing a game now and next year given the install user base?

I mean Assasins Creed sold 7 million way back in 2007... and yeah CoD has been just beyond anything that makes sales sense... or are game sales for certain games in the last year being used to point out that something is really allowing a wall to exist that most games just cannot get over unless the piracy or gamestop factors were not as severe.