New Zelda scans

[Blade]

Mario can be taken significantly further than he was on the GameCube, definitely.. without sacrificing his soul.

They could quadruple his polycount, give him dozens if not hundreds more frames of animation (to be conservative) and sharpen his textures to a cartoony point of insanity on the level of a top-rung CGI movie.

He'd be a smooth, lifelike cartoon.. much like Mr.Incredible.

 

[Phil]

You mean Mario looking like in a ToyStory CGI? :? Maybe I'm missing out how great that would look like, but IMO that isn't Mario anymore. It's like giving Mario a voice after having him speachless for 15-20 years... it just doesn't fit.

Which brings me to another point: Comics. Is there any comic you enjoyed reading and suddenly, after years, they decided to make a cartoon out of your favorite character? Nah, I'd rather have a comic character stay one as much as I'd rather have Mario stay Mario.

*imagines on Nintendo's 10th console in 2020 playing Mario like in the motion picture movie Super Mario Bros.*

Yuck.

 

[OICAspork]

I think the problem is that Nintendo's is holding on to franchises that aren't aging particularly well... They can't age well because they started off generations ago when all game-makers had were pixels on a 2d screen. With hardware becoming more powerful with every generation and gamers wanting more realism as technology progresses, how can you make a comic-character that was based on a few pixels generations ago look realistic/better and still feel right?

Naughty Dog experienced the same thing to an extend with Crash Bandicoot. Despite the huge success, Crash was a character designed around the limitations of the PlayStations's resolution. It was a wise decision to dump Crash as a character and go for Jak and Daxter. I guess Zelda (or should I say Link) isn't as much of a problem that Mario I guess will be... I mean, how much better can Mario look? Mario will always look best with the few colours he was designed with... I can't see him transition too well into next generation when hardware will be that fast that it can do so much more.

I find your reasoning only semi-valid. Are you saying that because Mario will never look like a human being it invalidates the quality and enjoyability of its platforming niche? Personally I think the platforming game market is one in which realism doesn't really blong. Your example of Jak and Daxter doesn't really hold water either. They are pretty damn cartoony, themselves. I don't see anyway in all Mario would be dimenished as Mario if he looked like he came out of Toy Story.

Having that said, a Zelda with blood and ultra realistic looking characters doesn't feel more right as would Mario looking "human" in a game based around a realistic setting a la MGS: Snake Eater. I wonder how long Nintendo will hold on to its franchises until they realise that it's time for something new... or will they keep Mario/Link as simlistic as they were designed to be and appeal to the forever younger audience?

In what way does realistic blood appeal to an older audience? If anything it appeals to a younger, immature audience. I think the Lord of the Link look of the new Zelda game is very much aimed at attracting an older audience to the Zelda franchise, without abandoning what it is to be Zelda. I don't see how adding blood to the melee would improve things in the slightest. I for one thing that the new Zelda looks pretty bad ass for any demographic.

I think this is one of the reasons why we got "Celda".

You would be referring to one of the most artistically and technologically impressive titles of this generation. It definitely might not have appealed to the older demographic, but damn, they missed out on some of the most spectacular animation sequences ever seen in a video game. If Nintendo had chosen to go with a different animation style that could have been different.

Beyond the fact that I don't feel that driving towards 'realism' is at all necessary for all games, on the contrary greater graphical ability allows for greater departure from reality into the realm of fantastic. That isn't to say that I don't believe there is a place for more realistic, adult oriented franchises in the Nintendo library, I just don't think that they need to give up the older ones. The talents of people like those at Retro Studios, N-Space, and previously Silicon Knights (I really, really think it was a mistake on Nintendo's part to let them go) can build new franchises that better suit the types of games you, personally are looking towards in the future.

 

[see colon]

[Zelda: Wind Waker] definitely might not have appealed to the older demographic, but damn, they missed out on some of the most spectacular animation sequences ever seen in a video game.

i hear this all of the time, and i'm not really sure if that's really true. i think it's not so much the older gamers, but the 20 somethings that were turned off by the look of wind waker. i know several gamers in their 30's and 40's who were fine with it, and enjoyed the game for what it was, and a plethora of very vocal 20 somethings that hate the game because of the graphics and little else.

personaly, the zelda series (minus the portable versions) died for me at OOT. the move to 3d changed the game beyond repair for me. OOT, MM, and WW are good games, but they don't have that zelda feel i enjoy.

 

[jvd]

I'm a 20 something player and I love it .

My friend was very against the game saying how ign and the others called it childish and he wouldn't play it , flash foward to me playing the game and him watching , 20 mins later he was leaving for the store so he could get his copy .

THe game was increadble and the graphics were breath taking . Its that some people had to find an area to bash it in and that is where the look of the game came in .

Its odd because when video games first came out there was no segregation . A good game was a good game and everyone would play it , now there is a group that has to have leet games that have to have blood and gore and "realistic" things in the game that are very unrealistic

 

[Kolgar]

Anyway I really just wanted to dispel the idea that this game is no darker or edgier then OOT.

Mission accomplished. Yes, it certainly is more adult, edgier, mature - whatever adjective you want to use, than OOT. It's shaping up to be a little closer to OOT than I'd maybe hoped for or anticipated, but that's beside this point.

 

[PC-Engine]

Nintendo has created an animation studio and will start releasing films. This is where the Hollywood/Broadway factors come in. It will allow them to kill two birds with one stone on costs and art creation.

Expect more Toy Story CGI with Nintendo characters.

Also expect more WW style animation 2D+3D.

 

[GwymWeepa]

I really wish Nintendo would stop making Mario look like a cupie doll. I think his design is fine and can be translated well into 3d, but not with the crap wannabe Pixar style they've tried to go for. His mustache and hair look like it came from Mr. Potato head, just cheap plastic.

 

[PC-Engine]

Well they could always change the rendering of hair for Mario to be more realistic.

 

[V3]

Mario model is fine, it just need better skin and clothes shader. Eyes could be better. Tesselation can be higher during close up. Hair and mustache can be better too.

What Mario need is the environment. It needs to be better than Sunshine. More interactive, hopefully with more breakable stuff, so you can shape your playground like the original SMB already did.

And if Nintendo ever combine all elements that used the Mario franchise, they probably get a GTA3 like game

 

[Iron Tiger]

The talents of people like those at Retro Studios, N-Space, and previously Silicon Knights (I really, really think it was a mistake on Nintendo's part to let them go) can build new franchises that better suit the types of games you, personally are looking towards in the future.

I think Nintendo thought of Silicon Knights as another Rare, taking so long to develop games that they end up being pushed to next gen platforms (GE007, Dinosaur Planet, and Perfect Dark Zero to name a few Rare titles, Too Human for SK). I'd heard that Nintendo was becoming angry with Retro for the slow development of Metroid Prime and was going to sever relations with them, before Miyamoto got involved.

I'm a 20 something player and I love it .

My friend was very against the game saying how ign and the others called it childish and he wouldn't play it , flash foward to me playing the game and him watching , 20 mins later he was leaving for the store so he could get his copy .

THe game was increadble and the graphics were breath taking . Its that some people had to find an area to bash it in and that is where the look of the game came in .

Its odd because when video games first came out there was no segregation . A good game was a good game and everyone would play it , now there is a group that has to have leet games that have to have blood and gore and "realistic" things in the game that are very unrealistic

Well, you can thank the Playstation for turning a bunch of cool jock non-gamers into "gamers".

Mario model is fine, it just need better skin and clothes shader. Eyes could be better. Tesselation can be higher during close up. Hair and mustache can be better too.

What Mario need is the environment. It needs to be better than Sunshine. More interactive, hopefully with more breakable stuff, so you can shape your playground like the original SMB already did.

And if Nintendo ever combine all elements that used the Mario franchise, they probably get a GTA3 like game

The thing I liked most about Mario Sunshine was that he was in a realized world for the first time (outside of an RPG). It could have been more interactive, but it was cool having him run through town and interact with people as they're living their day to day lives. Most people overlooked that major advancement for the series and called it "more of the same". The abstractly designed floating platform levels we were used to were included, but in an alternate reality type of setting. The game wasn't as fun as 64, largely due to the crappy controls, but there were a lot of great ideas incorporated that went unnoticed.

 

[Squeak]

The game wasn't as fun as 64, largely due to the crappy controls, but there were a lot of great ideas incorporated that went unnoticed.

No, it was due to the lack of that special Mario atmosphere. It just felt strangely disjointed and schizophrenic.
There was a few good bits, but the whole game suffered from being rushed and not having been through the usual rigorous self criticism and multiple "throw it all away and start again using the best of the scrapped games bits" iterations.

 

[Bohdy]

The game wasn't as fun as 64, largely due to the crappy controls, but there were a lot of great ideas incorporated that went unnoticed.

No, it was due to the lack of that special Mario atmosphere. It just felt strangely disjointed and schizophrenic.
There was a few good bits, but the whole game suffered from being rushed and not having been through the usual rigorous self criticism and multiple "throw it all away and start again using the best of the scrapped games bits" iterations.

I agree. It didn't really feel like a serious Mario game. Still very fun to play with many good qualities, though.

Oh and WTF @ "crappy controls"?? The game had the tightest and most refined controls of any platformer to date.

 

[Iron Tiger]

The game wasn't as fun as 64, largely due to the crappy controls, but there were a lot of great ideas incorporated that went unnoticed.

No, it was due to the lack of that special Mario atmosphere. It just felt strangely disjointed and schizophrenic.
There was a few good bits, but the whole game suffered from being rushed and not having been through the usual rigorous self criticism and multiple "throw it all away and start again using the best of the scrapped games bits" iterations.

What's your reasoning for thinking Mario Sunshine felt disjointed and shizophrenic? Did you think Mario 64 was cohesive? Every level had a different theme, and no location actually served a purpose. We've got people clamoring for realism, but you stick a little believability in Mario and people hate it. I'll just never understand that, and I don't think Miyamoto does either. Notice his limited involvement in the new Zelda game, after people largely rejected Wind Waker, his baby.

I agree. It didn't really feel like a serious Mario game. Still very fun to play with many good qualities, though.

Oh and WTF @ "crappy controls"?? The game had the tightest and most refined controls of any platformer to date.

Play Mario 64, then play Mario Sunshine and try to say that again.

I've spent hours outside the castle just comboing moves together and having a blast in Mario 64. Cannonballing and highdiving are especially fun. Mario Sunshine took away a lot of the moves or made some unchainable. Also, the control stick was too loose, and the camera was nowhere near as good as Mario 64 (I'd agree that part was rushed). Many of the traditional platforming puzzle levels were simply unplayable because of the unresponsive controls and wonky camera. I gave up the game due to frustration. Mario 64, I completed with all stars.

 

[Ty]

Bah, just give him a gun and call him Shadow Mario.

 

[Phil]

OICAspork, Squiek;

It's a shame you guys aren't quite getting the point I was trying to make.

I think the problem is that Nintendo's is holding on to franchises that aren't aging particularly well... They can't age well because they started off generations ago when all game-makers had were pixels on a 2d screen. With hardware becoming more powerful with every generation and gamers wanting more realism as technology progresses, how can you make a comic-character that was based on a few pixels generations ago look realistic/better and still feel right?

Naughty Dog experienced the same thing to an extend with Crash Bandicoot. Despite the huge success, Crash was a character designed around the limitations of the PlayStations's resolution. It was a wise decision to dump Crash as a character and go for Jak and Daxter. I guess Zelda (or should I say Link) isn't as much of a problem that Mario I guess will be... I mean, how much better can Mario look? Mario will always look best with the few colours he was designed with... I can't see him transition too well into next generation when hardware will be that fast that it can do so much more.

I find your reasoning only semi-valid. Are you saying that because Mario will never look like a human being it invalidates the quality and enjoyability of its platforming niche? Personally I think the platforming game market is one in which realism doesn't really blong.

People in this very thread seem to be misguided in believing that I am talking about Mario's / Nintendo's franchises enjoyability factor, when in fact I was talking about those games purely from a graphics/art-direction point of view. Please people, step out into reality and read again what I actually posted.

To recap what my point was: the whole discussion began when Kolgar and Teasy engaged in a conversation about the new Zelda's art-direction, which quite obviously is featuring more mature graphics, arguably targeting an older demographic again. Some of the things Kolgar pointed out that struck me as quite interesting is that the new Zelda still looks cartoony, obviously because he was expecting something darker, more adult (here). At the very same time, it's also quite obvious that others (i.e. Teasy) seem to have a different opinion, which only concludes that this franchise has been sparking mixed feelings.

The problem, IN MY OPINION, lies in that Nintendo has been holding on to its franchises for a very long time (over 10 years) and that they're not aging very well as expactations seem to vary by a large margin. While some are very happy with the art-direction of the new Zelda, there are undoubtedly others that would prefer something different like "Celda" again and others that clearly expect a more mature, more adult orientated art-direction. There's no way Nintendo will be able to satisfy all gamers and make their old characters still appeal to everyone. One of the other problems I see involved is that many gamers are expecting more realism in games - [ Nintendo buyers might be the exception here, as they are degrading more and more into a niche market of hardcore gamers ] - and IMO Link, Mario, Luigi & Co. weren't designed to be in realistic games. Mario for example is a simple platformer character after all - which he'll always be and stay. What will Nintendo do next generation with Mario? They made him 3d with the N64, now with GC they made him look like Mario should look like in 3d. IMO they can't make him look more realistic... he's already in 3d and the colours are already spot on. How can they evolutionize Mario any further (purely from a artistic-POV) and appeal to those that expect more realism, mature, adult orientated content/appeal? I say they can't - thus the limitation of the character itself. Mario won't get a real mustache, he won't get better looking clothes, no bump mapping on him either.... he's a cartoon character by heart. Hey, I'm sure wherever Nintendo takes him, it will be a fun experience and a game that won't be less fun than all the others - the more relevant question is if he'll be still as loved and enjoyed by as many as he is now. Mario is still Nintendo's strongest franchise (I think?)... I just wonder for how long?

The same would apply to any other character as well (also non Nintendo franchises of course). Crash Bandicoot comes to mind - a character that is cartoon by heart and was designed around the limitations of the PlayStation. Naughty Dog in some interview stated why they gave up the rights and created Jak & Daxter. Think about it: Crash was the PlayStation's best selling franchise - why would they not want to continue him? Maybe, just maybe, they knew that they already took him as far as they could on the PlayStation? Make him look more realistic on PS2? Sure, why not - but then he would become something he was not... a more realistic character appealing to a more adult orientated crowd? I don't think so. Maybe if Nintendo would make new characters based around a more adult orientated theme, maybe less people would expect that from the Mario & Co games?

So before anyone calls me a moron in other threads, my post was merely an observation on my part which was intended to spark some constructive discussion in here - and effort contrary to the default bickering and bitching about why Nintendo is/should/will fail/succeed as so many other threads get degraded to. Just an opinion and something to think about.

 

[PC-Engine]

Mario won't get a real mustache, he won't get better looking clothes, no bump mapping on him either.... he's a cartoon character by heart.

Huh? Why can't you model hair and fur on cartoon characters? Ever watch Shrek?

I'm sure Shrek only appealed to either the young OR the old, but never ever both.

You do realize why the characters in ToyStory were plastic....right?

It's pretty amazing that a three paragraph essay can easily be shot down with a couple of sentences using common sense...quality over quantity...

 

[Bohdy]

Also, the control stick was too loose, and the camera was nowhere near as good as Mario 64 (I'd agree that part was rushed). Many of the traditional platforming puzzle levels were simply unplayable because of the unresponsive controls and wonky camera. I gave up the game due to frustration. Mario 64, I completed with all stars.

The stick felt loose ... compared to the N64 stick? Worse camera???

I'm sorry, but I just don't know what to say to that, other than I disagree.

 

[Iron Tiger]

Also, the control stick was too loose, and the camera was nowhere near as good as Mario 64 (I'd agree that part was rushed). Many of the traditional platforming puzzle levels were simply unplayable because of the unresponsive controls and wonky camera. I gave up the game due to frustration. Mario 64, I completed with all stars.

The stick felt loose ... compared to the N64 stick? Worse camera???

I'm sorry, but I just don't know what to say to that, other than I disagree.

As you're welcome to, but I've found others that agree with me on those points.

 

[Titanio]

There are some exceptionally hot new pics at Jeux-France. Remember the fire monster from the trailer? It's at least a couple of times bigger now, seemingly..