New DVD Has Dual-Layered Surface (HD-DVD one-up on Blu-ray?)

[Almasy]

I suggest you reread my post.

Here I'll clarify for you. The 4.7GB layer will also be HD using the new CODECs to offer HD resolutions using the standard red laser. Obviously this is only beneficial to people who: 1. buy new red laser based HD DVD playres which will be VERY cheap and/or 2. watch DVDs on their PCs.

Now with regards to the blue laser HD layer, 15GB might be enough for the main movie while the extras can be put on a second disc. Of course this is only a stop gap to ease the transition while the prices on blue laser HD DVD players fall to mass market levels. Heck people are starting to move to upconverting DVD players already. Not only that but this scenario also allows PS3 to playback red laser based HD DVD movies!!!

So, let´s say you put a HD DVD, red laser version of the movie on one layer, right? You suggest that it would be beneficial to people who play them on their PCs and buy new gear capable of reading a red laser version of HD DVD, right?

Well, here´s a few problems with your theory:

1. The number of people that use their computers to play DVDs is far smaller than the number of people that just buy a box to play DVDs on their TVs. How can your idea be a transitional tool when the great mayority of the market can´t enjoy it anyway?

2. Maybe I don´t understand the way the CE market works, however I still have a few poblems with the idea of marketing people a device that plays not even half of what the new standard is supposed to be able to play. The blue laser version of HD DVD is "the real deal", right? Then why sell people players that can only read red laser versions? How can that be a smooth transition when you will require those new buyers of HD DVD players to get a new machine all over again to enjoy the movies on the new format like they´re supposed to?

 

[Jov]

Because its like a MS [HD-DVD] one-up Sony wrt consoles

It is? Please explain how TF that would be the case. The way I see it, if anything, this product dilutes HD-DVD as a format and lessens the need for a switch. Why would people buy HD-DVD players if they can continue to use their old DVD players?

PS3 on the other hand WILL READ BLU-RAY AND DVD. Anyone who buys a PS3 will have blu-ray compatibility as a freebie. Why would anyone need a half-assed dual-layer double format thing? Unneccessary, when the drive mechanism will play blu-ray, CD and DVD all in one.

Besides, when did MS confirm they'll use HD-DVD in nextbox? That's afaik just an assumption, though perhaps one classified as a fairly safe bet since "only" 9GB might be too little for next-gen games (though I know of no games which take up even close to that much space without also including movies). Still not set in stone though.

Chill.. I was just giving you a potential reason why this topic is in the Console forum.. not arguing for or against it.

Personally, I don't see how this works as you will need 2 DL-DVDs even for todays single disc movies.

 

[AzBat]

I'm confused. It says...

will be able to hold 4.7 GB in the current format and 15 GB in high resolution

One layer holds 4.7gb and the second layer holds 15gb? For a total of 19.7gb?

What's the size of the Xbox1 discs? What about today's movies? How much space would HD movies require? How much does a full HD-DVD hold?

I could possibly see this being used for non-movies like bonus content, Xbox2, etc. Though I agree as a transitional movie format it might not be worth it for the studios.

Tommy McClain

 

[Tagrineth]

You know, this technology could make feasible the "Current gen game that gets a *** boost from being played in future console" idea someone had in another thread....

Oi Tag where have you been!!?

I moved to a new city for college, so I didn't have time to post / read for a while... but I've been posting off and on here for the last two or more weeks, almost a minimum of once per day... so where have you been!!?

 

[PC-Engine]

1. The number of people that use their computers to play DVDs is far smaller than the number of people that just buy a box to play DVDs on their TVs. How can your idea be a transitional tool when the great mayority of the market can´t enjoy it anyway?

How many people do you know who has a desktop/laptop with DVD drive that has never used it's DVD movie playing capability? How many DVD drives are out there? The answer to that question is A LOT.

2. Maybe I don´t understand the way the CE market works, however I still have a few poblems with the idea of marketing people a device that plays not even half of what the new standard is supposed to be able to play. The blue laser version of HD DVD is "the real deal", right? Then why sell people players that can only read red laser versions? How can that be a smooth transition when you will require those new buyers of HD DVD players to get a new machine all over again to enjoy the movies on the new format like they´re supposed to?

Because it can be done very cheaply and because DVD started out as single layer. People don't have to wait for the player to come down to $300 after 1-2 years. For example just look at the new upconverting DVD players. People are buying them to watch standard DVDs on a HDTV. If they're willing to buy a new more expensive DVD player for just a minor improvement over stand DVD players, then they will be willing to do the same to get true HD movie content from these dual red/blue laser hybrid HD DVD discs. The red layer would hold a low quality HD movie while the blue layer would hold the high quality HD movie.

 

[London Geezer]

You know, this technology could make feasible the "Current gen game that gets a *** boost from being played in future console" idea someone had in another thread....

Oi Tag where have you been!!?

I moved to a new city for college, so I didn't have time to post / read for a while... but I've been posting off and on here for the last two or more weeks, almost a minimum of once per day... so where have you been!!?

I'm a shy boy, took me a while to approach you

 

[rabidrabbit]

Because it can be done very cheaply and because DVD started out as single layer.

What has that got to do with the success of the dual standard format?
Those one layer early DVD's look like crap compared to today's dual layer, higher bitrate releases.
The film companies could of course strip the DVD layer from all extra options, like only one sound track, one subtitle and no extras like commentaries.
But if you release the disc with only one language option, that would complicate the worldwide releases way too much to be economically viable.
I just don't see this getting much support either from content creators or consumers. It might have marginal markets for people like you... but I fear they are a relatively small group.

 

[PC-Engine]

Because it can be done very cheaply and because DVD started out as single layer.

What has that got to do with the success of the dual standard format?
Those one layer early DVD's look like crap compared to today's dual layer, higher bitrate releases.
The film companies could of course strip the DVD layer from all extra options, like only one sound track, one subtitle and no extras like commentaries.
But if you release the disc with only one language option, that would complicate the worldwide releases way too much to be economically viable.
I just don't see this getting much support either from content creators or consumers. It might have marginal markets for people like you... but I fear they are a relatively small group.

What do you mean by dual standard? A red/blue HD DVD hybrid disc? Please clarify.

 

[rabidrabbit]

What do you mean by dual standard? A red/blue HD DVD hybrid disc? Please clarify.

:?
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/041208/japan_toshiba_dvds_1.html
I don't know if "dual standard" is the right term (likely not), but I hope you haven't already forgotten what has been talked about in this thread.

 

[PC-Engine]

Ok if we're talking about this dual standard hybrid red/blue laser HD DVD then like I said there isn't a problem since you either buy the cheap red laser DVD player to watch the low quality HD red laser layer at launch or you wait until the price of the initially expensive blue laser HD DVD player comes down to play the blue layer of the this dual standard hybrid red/blue laser HD DVD.

Remember they HD DVD is using a higher efficiency CODEC in conjunction with higher capacity 15GB vs 4.7 GB. With 3 times the capacity and several times the codec efficiency, you can still fit a movie on the single 15GB layer just like the first movies fit on a single DVD layer.

Later on when the prices fall on the blue laser HD DVD players and people migrate over, they can slow start to phase out this hybrid disc and convert to thte full blow 30GB discs.

 

[Ty]

Sounds like a "hack" to me. If DVD (480p) quality is compromised in any way (or if they strip out extras) then it's a hack, right?

Oh, oddly enough I have a DVD player in my PC but have NEVER used it for movies. Why would I watch it on my PC when I have one of the best DVD players for my HT setup? Even though my CRT is a top of the line Sony, it still pales in comparison to my TV and the rest of the whole HT experience in my living room. I really don't know how many people watch movies on their PC DVD player. I definately can see this for laptops but not desktops imo.

 

[rabidrabbit]

PC-Engine: So you really expect people to buy a new "pseudo HD-DVD/DVD" player just to be able to wiew that "pseudo HD-DVD" material that offers only a marginal improvement on current DVD, while waiting for the "real" HD-DVD?

They likely already have a DVD player they can use to view all DVD's and which still has a very stable future ahead of it, unlike some "pseudo HD-DVD" format, and I don't think other than hardcore hobbyists are that eager to get their hand on higher-than-dvd resolution material, especially as it isn't that much higher.

Wait... is this even news :? Isn't there already some Terminator 2 DVD special edition that has a higher resolution version of the film that uses MS codec, and can be played on Windows Mediaplayer???? Was that on the same disc, or was it aseparate disc??

 

[PC-Engine]

Sounds like a "hack" to me. If DVD (480p) quality is compromised in any way (or if they strip out extras) then it's a hack, right?

That's what the high efficiency CODEC is for. Have you seen T2EE HD? Did you think it was worse than standard DVD? How much space did the actual movie itself use?

Oh, oddly enough I have a DVD player in my PC but have NEVER used it for movies. Why would I watch it on my PC when I have one of the best DVD players for my HT setup? Even though my CRT is a top of the line Sony, it still pales in comparison to my TV and the rest of the whole HT experience in my living room. I really don't know how many people watch movies on their PC DVD player. I definately can see this for laptops but not desktops imo.

If it's cheap why not? You're seriously underestimating the potential of DVD drives that are already out there. Last time I checked the number of DVD drives for computers are close to or over 100 million. Of course you would have to have a pretty powerful computer or you would have to buy a cheap dedicated HD DVD decoder card. Let's say NLC release LOTR on this hybrid disc. Do you think people won't be all over this considering how cheap it is to acquire?

Again for the 3rd straight time. If they also release new cheap HD red laser standalone DVD players, do you think people would NOT buy them to watch these HD movies? Just look at the desparate whores who are snapping up the Superbit DVDs and upconverting DVD players. Why get buy Superbit and/or upconverting DVD players when you can have true HD???

PC-Engine: So you really expect people to buy a new "pseudo HD-DVD/DVD" player just to be able to wiew that "pseudo HD-DVD" material that offers only a marginal improvement on current DVD, while waiting for the "real" HD-DVD?

Read the part above where I talke about Superbit and upconverting DVD whores. Also do you seriously believe T2EE HD is only marginally better than standard DVDs?

They likely already have a DVD player they can use to view all DVD's and which still has a very stable future ahead of it, unlike some "pseudo HD-DVD" format, and I don't think other than hardcore hobbyists are that eager to get their hand on higher-than-dvd resolution material, especially as it isn't that much higher.

What do yo mean? It would be HD resolution 1080 like T2EE which destroys standard DVDs not to mention it DVD backwards compatibility.

Wait... is this even news Isn't there already some Terminator 2 DVD special edition that has a higher resolution version of the film that uses MS codec, and can be played on Windows Mediaplayer???? Was that on the same disc, or was it aseparate disc??

It was a separate HD release after the standard DVD release. Basically these announced hybrid discs allows you to pack in the HD T2EE movie on the 4.7GB layer while also giving you the higher quality (same HD resolution) on the 15GB layer. Of course there's nothing to stop the studios from releasing a 720p version on the 4.7GB layer if 4.7GB isn't enough.

 

[ultimate_end]

Lol, this is just an extension of Toshiba, NEC & Co's short sighted "backwards compatiblity" philosophy . What am I going to do with a half-assed 15GB HD movie? As I see it, the only saving grace for HD DVD to provide true HD quality (that includes sound, in case anybody was wondering) was possibly their dual layer version (30GB). Now they put that on the back burner? No amount of mpeg4 wizardry is going to stretch 15GB I'm afraid. Next generation HD content should not be Next-gen half assed content! If I want DVD quality I'll buy a DVD. If I want 1080p and very minimum 96/24-6.1, (it looks like) I'll buy Blu-ray. Not some emasculated hybrid of the two :? .

It's horendously obvious that these HD-DVD fools are more interested in sucking up to the frightened majority of the DVD Forum, than giving a damn about providing a forward looking, well thought out solution to consumers' future requirements. The DVD Forum need not fear the coming High definition content, as IMO the DVD and HD formats will comfortably co-exist for some time to come (unlike VHS vs DVD). If this doesn't end soon, the future of HD content media is going to be seriously compromised (and I'm not only talking DVD-R/DVD+R compromised either).

And yes I do realise this new disc is just an intermediate solution, but it nicely highlights HD-DVD's short-term-thinking philosophy. To those who are happy with DVD "1.5" then good for you. But don't come whinging when in a couple of years from now you run out of capacity and there is no Blu-ray around to save your collective asses. Maybe then you will realise that thinking only one year ahead at a time is a flawed approach to life.

But enough of this rant. If someone doesn't find a way to apply this topic to consoles very soon, this thread must be locked.

 

[London Geezer]

Well, the Lord of the Rings special editions, the 4 discs ones, already use more space than a normal DVD, and although that's a special case (and a very very irritating one, i mean, change disc in mid-movie??!!!), a 15GB disc won't cut it as a next gen disc.

This sounds a lot like MD. A format that doesn't really provide anything new or much better than the existing one, and not good enough compared to the real next gen.

 

[PC-Engine]

They can always release the hybrid versions separately from the full blown 30GB HD DVD versions if demand is there kinda like Superbit. If consumers put their money where thier mouth is ie buy the expensive players and 30GB versions then I'm sure the studios would oblige.

BTW lb why wouldn't 15GB not be enough? T2EE uses about 6 or 7 GBs for 1080p that's only half of 15GBs. Have you seen the quality of T2EE?

 

[London Geezer]

They can always release the hybrid versions separately from the full blown 30GB HD DVD versions if demand is there kinda like Superbit. If consumers put their money where thier mouth is ie buy the expensive players and 30GB versions then I'm sure the studios would oblige.

BTW lb why wouldn't 15GB not be enough? T2EE uses about 6 or 7 GBs for 1080p that's only half of 15GBs. Have you seen the quality of T2EE?

No i haven't actually since it was never released in the UK AFAIK.
I'm just a bit annoyed at the changing discs thing for the LOTR special editions...

 

[wco81]

The enthusiasts want high bit rates, even with H.264 or VC-1. Because they are targeting 1080p24 or 30 along with newer audio codecs, even lossless audio.

For that 15 GB is simply not enough without cutting the bit rates to well under 10 Mbps.

More and more, it's becoming obvious that HD-DVD exists solely to maintain the patent licensing revenue sharing agreements for the current patent holders and nothing else.

Blu-Ray is the true innovation while HD-DVD is at best a kludge intended to extend a technically inferior format for a few more years.

For anyone who wants a recording solution as well as a playback solution, there is simply no choice.

 

[ultimate_end]

They can always release the hybrid versions separately from the full blown 30GB HD DVD versions if demand is there kinda like Superbit. If consumers put their money where thier mouth is ie buy the expensive players and 30GB versions then I'm sure the studios would oblige.

Well said.

Three points:

1. I'm not actually convinced dual layer HD-DVD is enough anyway (hence my scepicism of HD-DVD in general).

2. Why should mainstream HD consumers have to miss out on what HD is all about? And don't worry, if you are getting into HD content then the ever-so-slightly higher end equipment will likely be mainstream for you anyway. I mean we're not talking 192KHz 7.1 uncompressed sound here you know. In any case, we'll have to wait for quad layered Blu-ray for that (again HD-DVD is only a short term solution).

3. This is a big if, but what makes us so sure that companies want to be tied to monopolistic Microsoft's proprietry CODEC? The world grows more suspicious of Microsoft by the day, as you are probably aware (I aplogise, of course you are).

Anyway, by your reasoning, we don't even need HD-DVD at all do we? Most movies will fit onto a standard dual layer DVD with this new codec. But in any case the Terminator disc you refer to uses 1440x1080 resolution and is far from high quality compression. Also, as London-Boy pointed out, some movies are quite long and multiple disc is becoming unacceptable for such movies (even for the extras).


Sorry for sounding grumpy in all of this, but I take technology compromises quite seriously. (maybe too seriously - I hope I don't turn into Vince ).

 

[Ty]

That's what the high efficiency CODEC is for. Have you seen T2EE HD? Did you think it was worse than standard DVD? How much space did the actual movie itself use?

I have not. Which is why I used the word, "If". "If" 480p is compromised in any way, wouldn't you call that a hack? I don't know enough about this proposal to be able to make that kind of prediction for certain.

If it's cheap why not? You're seriously underestimating the potential of DVD drives that are already out there. Last time I checked the number of DVD drives for computers are close to or over 100 million. Of course you would have to have a pretty powerful computer or you would have to buy a cheap dedicated HD DVD decoder card. Let's say NLC release LOTR on this hybrid disc. Do you think people won't be all over this considering how cheap it is to acquire?

That's why the phrase you're responding to started with, "oddly enough". I'm not going to speak for the average PC desktop owner who has a DVD player. Just for me. But I think the reasoning for my experience is pretty sound. On the couch I can recline and enjoy the show.

Again for the 3rd straight time. If they also release new cheap HD red laser standalone DVD players, do you think people would NOT buy them to watch these HD movies? Just look at the desparate whores who are snapping up the Superbit DVDs and upconverting DVD players. Why get buy Superbit and/or upconverting DVD players when you can have true HD???

Sure. I never mentioned it wouldn't sell. I bet it would sell a whole lot better than Superbit players (I didn't know a DVD player needed to have hardware support for Superbit to work).