New AA options in Detonator

[martrox]

I don't think the shimmer has to do with the "brilinear," but rather with the new LOD selection method. Anyway, I always play with all the optimizations turned to off, and haven't noticed many shimmering issues (pretty much the only times I've noticed it were where you'd expect it: on surfaces that aren't handled properly by texture filtering, like bump mapping in Doom 3).

I tried turning off all the optimizations on my GT and it did help....BUT, my frame rates plumeted, but the ailising is still there, abet to a bit lesser degree. In all honesty, with all the optimizations turned to off the GT was much slower than my X800XL. At 1280x724, with everything turned on - 16x AF on both cards & 6x FSAA(XL) and 4x FSAA(GT) I get much better frame rates and much better IQ on the XL - which I do leave the AI set to standard, as I can see no difference at all with it turned off......

BTW, I don't play Doom......

 

[KimB]

The 4X AA on 6800 is definitely not quite up to the same level as the 9700s. I also believe that it is because of the lack of gamma correction. You can see the 'steps' more clearly than on the ATI cards.

Well, given that that's the only difference between the two modes...

It's also extremely disappointing that the chip can't do 6X AA. The 8X mode is a joke for the most part as it results in like a 70% performance drop. 8X looks to have been added just as a way to counter ATI's 6X. The 8X mode is just a goofy combination of SSAA and MSAA. It's almost completely useless for modern games, unless you own a 6800 Ultra perhaps because the performance drain is insane. Not at all unlike reliving the Radeon 8500 AA experience, lol.

The half-supersampling modes are pretty much only useful for older games that make use of lots of alpha tests.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Disagree coz you really need to know what you've been missing. ATI fanbois wouldn't have bought an Nvidia card. I like my 6800GT for a lot of reasons, but 4xAA isn't as good without GC IMO, and texture shimmering is far worse on my 6800GT than my 9700Pro, almost as bad as my 8500 without SS. ATI fans when they mention it, get shouted down and I'm not 100% convinced that X800 brilinear doesn't shimmer as much because I haven't seen it to compare.

I don't know 'bout the brilinear, but my X800 doesn't shimmer. It really is nicer looking to me.

I'm not trying to be a fanboy, but on some games it's a noticeable difference and on some games it's not. When I notice it I really notice it to the point that it distracts me from the game, but your own mileage may vary.

 

[Bob]

I don't know 'bout the brilinear, but my X800 doesn't shimmer. It really is nicer looking to me.

There is an option in the drivers called "Clamp Negative LOD". Does it help if you enable it?

 

[trinibwoy]

I don't know 'bout the brilinear, but my X800 doesn't shimmer. It really is nicer looking to me.

There is an option in the drivers called "Clamp Negative LOD". Does it help if you enable it?

I've only ever seen the shimmering in BF1942 screenshots although I've never experienced it first hand. I always have the LOD clamp activated anyway so maybe that's why I don't have this issue.

 

[trinibwoy]

Even the most extreme ATi fanb0ys haven't been playing the IQ card this generation so I take that as a sign. If there was such a large difference it would surely have been a hot topic this time around, but it's not.

Disagree coz you really need to know what you've been missing. ATI fanbois wouldn't have bought an Nvidia card. I like my 6800GT for a lot of reasons, but 4xAA isn't as good without GC IMO, and texture shimmering is far worse on my 6800GT than my 9700Pro, almost as bad as my 8500 without SS. ATI fans when they mention it, get shouted down and I'm not 100% convinced that X800 brilinear doesn't shimmer as much because I haven't seen it to compare.

Hmmm good point. Do you have an example of where I can look for this shimmering. Here's a short list of the games I have (I assume this doesn't occur in RTS titles or flight sims)

UT2004
BF1942
Call of Duty
Medal of Honor (entire series)
Aliens vs Predator 2
Serious Sam
Splinter Cell + Pandora Tomorrow
Prince of Persia
Far Cry
HL2 demo
NOLF

And is the shimmering the same as the texture crawling some people complain about?

 

[martrox]

Haha, I was waiting for martrox to show up. Not to sound too cynical but you guys aren't exactly neutral parties. The general consensus is that NV40 and R420 AA is on par. There may be a slight nod to the R420 but nothing like you guys make it out to be. I guess I'll just have to make do with my inferior vision

None of this is to say the 6800 is bad......It's just that the difference is very noticable. Some of us here have been saying something about it since the cards first came out. trinibwoy, you have been in denial on this subject for a long time, and your pat answer is we are fanboys. Fact is, I own both cards( I also own a X850 XT), and I paid my money to actually see the difference. Never once have I said the 6xxx is a bad deal, apiece of crap or in any way have I had any issues with it with the exception of it's IQ. It is true that I haven't commented on anything other than speed & IQ - I have nothing that does enough in those extra features that the 6xxx series to make any comment on. Fact is, I use these cards to play games on. I even commented on ithe differences when I first got theGT vs. the 9800Pro:

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14056&highlight=6800

 

[trinibwoy]

Yeah that's pretty much what I'm saying. In that post you say that the 6800GT at 4x "sucks rocks" compared to the 9800P at 4x. Now "sucks rocks" implies a much higher quality on the 9800P. Not only do I think this is untrue since it would have been bandied about every forum from hell to highwater but I've owned both those cards and don't agree with your evaluation. Granted the only games that I had installed when I made the transition were Far Cry and UT2004, I don't quite get why you think the GT's 4x "sucks rocks" compared to the 9800P. Based on your analysis I should have been aghast at the drop in IQ when I installed the GT - this has yet to happen.

And I'm not trying to brand you as a fanboi. It's just that it's public knowledge that you and digi are fervent ATi supporters so it's hard to take your "word" on issues such as this. Not saying you're not seeing what you're saying but from my perspective I have to take it with buckets of salt. If a lot more people were of the same opinion it would be a lot easier for me to swallow. With [H], Anand and others continuously finding equality in their IQ analysis throughout this generation, it's even harder to comprehend how you can see such pronounced differences that others seem oblivious to.

Gamma correction on R420 is certainly an edge but I'm not so sure that advantage is as pronounced as you believe.

 

[swaaye]

Well the reviews I've read haven't said equality. ATI usually has a slight edge, and that is what I see in games. The lack of 6X AA guarantees inequality in my book. 6X MSAA would be extremely playable on 6800 if NV had bothered to support it.

The jist of it is that jaggies are still quite noticeable at 4X and 6800 doesn't really have an option above 4X, and that ATI's 4X is superior and ATI's 6X is a usable feature while NV's 8X is really not due to performance (at least on my laptop's plain 12x5 370/770 6800.)

I'm also a bit perplexed that some of you call people biased fanboys when these people own both cards. I don't think someone that invests $400 or more into both ATI & NV fits into that category.

 

[trinibwoy]

Well the reviews I've read haven't said equality. ATI usually has a slight edge, and that is what I see in games. The lack of 6X AA guarantees inequality in my book. 6X MSAA would be extremely playable on 6800 if NV had bothered to support it.

The jist of it is that jaggies are still quite noticeable at 4X and 6800 doesn't really have an option above 4X, and that ATI's 4X is superior and ATI's 6X is a usable feature while NV's 8X is really not.

Yes 6x support is a definite advantage. We're just going to have to disagree that ATi's 4x is noticeably superior Architecturally, the NV40 is not capable of outputting 6x but it is capable of hybrid mode support. This may pay off for them in the long term. If Nvidia exposes 2xSS/4xMS AA with G70 and ATi is still maxed at 6x then the tables may turn in this regard. My GT runs several older titles (WC3, POP) in this "unofficial" mode at excellent speed so hopefully the G70 will be able to do so in newer titles as well, especially considering the current "official" 8x is a slow 4xSS/2xMS AA mix.

 

[trinibwoy]

I'm also a bit perplexed that some of you call people biased fanboys when these people own both cards. I don't think someone that invests $400 or more into both ATI & NV fits into that category.

That's not what determines whether or not someone is a fanboi. There are a lot of people who were arguing over the FX/R300/NV40/R420 that still own Ti 4200's and 8500's. It's one thing to say that you own both cards but bias is a very difficult (read:impossible) thing to hide.'

There are people who own both but only have positive things to say about one brand, and negative about the next. What do you call that?

 

[martrox]

By comparison, the differences in FSAA are enough for me to buy one card over another. And remember that I said it was a first impression. On the one game I was playing - which I did say it was only based on one game, the differences were pretty dramatic for FSAA. Even Chris Ray commented that the 6800's were having some major problems with that game - City of Heros.

This is a bug with the 6800 and City of Heroes. The texture crawling is something nvidia is aware of and they are currently working on a fix.

And you will notice that I really liked the 6800's( both of them!) If I was the fanb0y you say I am.......why would I write this? BTW, notice that texture crawling is mentioned. I'd gladly have a 6800 series compared to a 9800Pro...... But I'd rather have a X800 series for the better IQ, plain and simple. And notice that I'm not alone in my feelings about the IQ difference.

I will have the best card I can afford, and it doesn't matter what brand it is. If the next generation of nVidia has the features I look for, it will be in my computer, period. Notice that I don't comment on future products or those features that have no impact on what I use a videocard for. While I have alway had a problem with nVidias marketing, I've never had a problem with their hardware. Hell, I own 4 systems ATM with nVidia chipsets - 2 NF4's and 2 NF3's..( But I will get an ATI chipset MB when a good one(read: overclocking) is available!) I've always gone for the eyecandy. I bought a V5 for the FSAA, and when 3Dfx went out of business, I bought nVidia. GF2Pro, GF3, GF3Ti,GF4. And compared to the V5, the FSAA on the GF's really did suck. It was only after ATI came out with the 9800 that I moved there for - you guessed it - the much better IQ. I just think you need to rethink your calling anyone who disagrees with you a fanb0y, trinibwoy.

 

[trinibwoy]

I just think you need to rethink your calling anyone who disagrees with you a fanb0y, trinibwoy.

Hey I didn't call you a fanboi!! (at least not in this thread ) That's all it is - we disagree. I admit that I would take your word on something a lot sooner if it were something positive about an Nvidia product. Just can't be sure these days how much a person's opinion is colored by their affinity for a certain IHV.

 

[KimB]

By comparison, the differences in FSAA are enough for me to buy one card over another. And remember that I said it was a first impression. On the one game I was playing - which I did say it was only based on one game, the differences were pretty dramatic for FSAA. Even Chris Ray commented that the 6800's were having some major problems with that game - City of Heros.

Right, because of the way the game is designed, City of Heroes begs for some really high-quality FSAA. But I had tremendous performance problems when I tried to play it on my 9700 Pro last year (when the game came out). This was fixed immediately when I moved to my 6800, and so I never looked back.

 

[Randell]

Anyway, I always play with all the optimizations turned to off, and haven't noticed many shimmering issues (pretty much the only times I've noticed it were where you'd expect it: on surfaces that aren't handled properly by texture filtering, like bump mapping in Doom 3).

I always have them turned off as well, and I still think the shimmering is bad and AF can make it worse not better in many games.

 

[martrox]

(OT)trinibwoy,I appreciate what you are saying. But I have given nVidia kudo's when I felt they were deserved. And I really try not to be negative on any product unless it deserves it......like the FX5900 that I owned. It just wasn't a good product at the time and I said so. And history has proven me pretty much right on. Fact is, all of ATI's and nVidias current videocards are excellent - although I'd never recommend any ATI R200 based cards - they really need to kill those things off. And I'd probably not recommend either company's low end stuff to any gamer, and neither would you, I would hope!

For me, it comes down to wether you want better IQ or future features(as far as current products from both companys go). I go with the better IQ while many here prefer the future features. I've learned over the years that by the time future features are actually usable I 'll have a new videocard with those features. I chose the V5 over a GF , and I would choose a X800 over a GF6x for those reasons. To not comment on the differences why I would do so does a disservice to the people here. Ask DW if I said anything that wasn't true about the IQ differences when I first posted them here..... it's a good bet it had a lot to do with his buying an X800. I'm no hardware guru, and I have no agenda. I only call them as I see them. And it has been a bit tough to experience the difference and not see much said in the reviews. And it's those reviewers that either just don't see the difference or make little of them that really do the end user a disservice. Here, try this on for size: If I told you that the IQ from both cards is pretty much the same and you then found out for yourself that wasn't what you saw.....would you trust what I say?

 

[dizietsma]

My most noticable list in decended order is

Too slow FPS
Not enough AF
Not enough AA

In actual game play AA is not really noticable ( talking firstpersonshooters here ) unless you are examining the scenery, the other two are though, especially the first of course.

I think it might be my fault for buying mid range cards but I have always had to compromise on the IQ to get a decent frame rate. It would be nice for one generation that the hardware people were so far ahead of the software games people that you could have no compromise with IQ on a mid range card. Will it be G70 and r520 to give this I wonder ? Probably not I guess.

 

[martrox]

A lot of the FSAA "noticablilty" does have to do with what you play. I don't play FPs's or RTS's - hell I'm too old and have slow reflexes. Think it might have to do with living through the 60's & 70's. DW, you listening? I play RPG's & simulations primarily. While I'm old, I do notice crawling jaggies & textures big time. They drive me nuts and reall detract from the immersiveness of the game. Right now, my game of choice is WOW. Also Guild Wars & Pirates. BTW, texture ailising on Guild Wars is terrible - on both cards. I play that with friends that can't or won't put up with a monthly charge - and I understand that.

 

[trinibwoy]

If I told you that the IQ from both cards is pretty much the same and you then found out for yourself that wasn't what you saw.....would you trust what I say?

I hear you. It's a tough call since I don't have access to R420 hardware. Seems like most people were extremely happy with their purchases this generation anyway so it's all good.

 

[digitalwanderer]

A lot of the FSAA "noticablilty" does have to do with what you play. I don't play FPs's or RTS's - hell I'm too old and have slow reflexes. Think it might have to do with living through the 60's & 70's. DW, you listening? I play RPG's & simulations primarily. While I'm old, I do notice crawling jaggies & textures big time. They drive me nuts and reall detract from the immersiveness of the game. Right now, my game of choice is WOW. Also Guild Wars & Pirates. BTW, texture ailising on Guild Wars is terrible - on both cards. I play that with friends that can't or won't put up with a monthly charge - and I understand that.

I don't do RTS's, but I'm a FP whore. I put it as FPS, AA, AF for how I prioritize my visuals.

FP & 3rd person shooters (Max Payne, GTA:SA) are my faves and I'm pretty relentless about making sure I try every single new one that comes out.