Neutrino apparently moving faster than light

I've heard a good description which says that time and speed are simply opposite ends of the same scale. The faster you travel through space, the slower you travel through time a vice versa. i.e.

100% speed (light speed) = 0% time (frozen in time) and vice versa
I've always been tempted by an analogy with Conway's Game of Life. Imagine that elementary particles are themselves made of a simpler kind of element ('bits') that moved through space in fixed increments ('cells') at fixed intervals ('ticks').

The behavior of the elementary particles we know would depend on the internal movement of those simpler 'bits'. That internal movement goes in all directions but over time it has to have an average of zero for a stationary elementary particle. But if the elementary particle isn't stationary, then when all the 'bits' have to move in a specific direction, they cannot also move internally in the same tick, and therefore their internal time slows down. At the maximum speed, they literally have no internal movement.

It's just one very unlikely explanation out of oh-so-many (nothing proves there is anything more basic than our existing elementary particles) but I feel it's a pretty nice analogy. YMMV.

Given that in theory time slows down until it stops as you approach the speed of light this makes perfect sense. But it also raises interesting possibilities for particles that exceed the speed of light.
If something really did exceed the speed of light in a linear 3D space (which I still heavily doubt) then maybe the question shouldn't only be why it's faster, but also why light is slower. It's possible the universe really works in 'ticks' and light just misses some of them for some obtuse reason so that it can never reach maximum velocity. I don't think anyone mentioning time travel should be taken seriously at this point. Then again I'm a bad amateur here so I should probably just shut up!
 
What about the idea that the Universe is not flat and smooth like Einstein thought but is actually lumpy and foamy. The higher energy neutrino may not be slowed down and therefore travels at closer to the "true" absolute speed limit and light is slower! Or I am talking nonsense of course.
The idea was dis proven by Kepler apparently, measuring two photons (one high energy Gamma and lower energy X-ray) that were emitted at the same time from a supernova some 7 billion light years away. In that theory however the higher energy photon was meant to arrive later!

Confused.... :???:
 
What about the idea that the Universe is not flat and smooth like Einstein thought but is actually lumpy and foamy. The higher energy neutrino may not be slowed down and therefore travels at closer to the "true" absolute speed limit and light is slower! Or I am talking nonsense of course.
They are comparing the measured speed of the particles to c which is a fundamental constant, not the speed of photons which are believed to have a maximum speed of c under ideal conditions.

Light is already known to be slower in the conditions of the tests on Earth and in less than perfect vacuum.

One problem the speed figure for the neutrino beam presents (aside from affecting a number that has been found in a wide swath of physical phenomena) is that it needs to be reconciled with the theory for how neutrinos oscillate in type as they travel.
In order to balance out the types of emitted neutrinos from sources like the sun, the theory is that they oscillate in type over time, which is problematic since having time to oscillate normally means you are traveling below c.
What does travelling above it mean, when that entails having less than no time to oscillate?
 
. I don't think anyone mentioning time travel should be taken seriously at this point.
Well it is important to distinguish what kind of time travel. Travelling to the future (ignoring practical issues) is fairly reasonable, travelling to the past on the other hand...

I'll also say I think eventually we will find that photons do indeed have mass, or if they don't have mass then light isn't really "absorbed" by black holes...

@pjbliverpool: FTFY - 100% speed (gravity speed) = 0% time (frozen in time) and vice versa
 
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wasn't it so that when you plug the parameters of an object that has mass and is moving at c to relativistic movement formulas you basically end up with the object occupying every point in space simultaneously? :)
 
pjbliverpool said:
Indeed, it's one of the more obvious and thus significfant effects of relativity.

Totally counter intuitive but that's what makes it so brilliant :)

Could you point me to where it says this? Because I've seen a lot of bogus interpretations of Einstein's original text, especially when it comes to time and measuring movement.
 

But that is exactly my point. Observer / see has nothing to do with the absolute speed at which one object moves away from the other, which is 2c. Observe and measure are not the same thing. The really interesting implications of Einstein, at least to me (and I am not properly schooled in this, so forgive me if I mess up the terminology), were simply that most of our observations are by sight, and Einstein made light itself a very definite part of the equation.
 
But that is exactly my point. Observer / see has nothing to do with the absolute speed at which one object moves away from the other, which is 2c. Observe and measure are not the same thing. The really interesting implications of Einstein, at least to me (and I am not properly schooled in this, so forgive me if I mess up the terminology), were simply that most of our observations are by sight, and Einstein made light itself a very definite part of the equation.

I understand your question, but it's actually not that light is anything special. It comes from Maxwell's equations, which imply that the speed of light is a constant. However, if it's constant then there will be a "static reference frame" which one can use his observed speed of light to know whether he is moving at a constant speed or not, but this is a direct contradiction to Galilean invariance (that is, physics laws must be the same in all inertial frames).

Therefore, Einstein's special relativity solves this problem, maintaining both observed facts that speed of light is constant and Galilean invariance. This leads to bizarre (but verified) predictions such as the c + c = c instead of 2c and time flows slower when moving at high speed.
 
I understand your question, but it's actually not that light is anything special. It comes from Maxwell's equations, which imply that the speed of light is a constant. However, if it's constant then there will be a "static reference frame" which one can use his observed speed of light to know whether he is moving at a constant speed or not, but this is a direct contradiction to Galilean invariance (that is, physics laws must be the same in all inertial frames).

But isn't that use of the speed of light similar to (and in some sense inferior to, depending on what you are studying) the vibration of an atom as is currently used as our most reliable frame of reference for measuring 'relative' movement, aka measuring 'time'?

Therefore, Einstein's special relativity solves this problem, maintaining both observed facts that speed of light is constant and Galilean invariance. This leads to bizarre (but verified) predictions such as the c + c = c instead of 2c and time flows slower when moving at high speed.

I just simply refuse to believe that time flows, as time doesn't exist. I can totally see c + c = c, because from a visual observation point of view c equals infinity. But a correct verification of c + c = c from the point of view I was postulating implies that the speed of light is not finite, which of course we know it isn't.

The whole point of everything is relativity. If I have a circle and let light travel that circle in one direction, light will have passed that circle at the speed of light, and the speed at which the circle has filled is distance * c. But now if I let light travel that circle in both directions, light will have passed that circle in (distance/2) * c. Therefore, if I were to assess the speed at which light travels left through the circle from the light travelling right through the circle, the speed at which one distances itself from the other (or closes in on the other, as this is a circle) is twice the speed of light.

So again, I would intuitively suggest that the value of c is only special in relativity insofar as it refers to using light to both observe and measure speed. The one time I consulted Einstein's original text on the subject, I got the impression that this is exactly what he meant, and a lot of counterintuitive things that have been formulated afterwards (including in fiction ;) ) can only be based on a misinterpretation.

But also again, I am just a hobbyist thinker, so if I am missing something fundamental here, I'll gladly soak up the correction!
 
But a correct verification of c + c = c from the point of view I was postulating implies that the speed of light is not finite, which of course we know it isn't.
??? The speed of light is most definitely finite, or did you mean "isn't not finite?"
 
But isn't that use of the speed of light similar to (and in some sense inferior to, depending on what you are studying) the vibration of an atom as is currently used as our most reliable frame of reference for measuring 'relative' movement, aka measuring 'time'?

This is actually, probably the most common question for special relativity. Many people would ask, why if a clock of light slows down, then everything must slow down too? The problem lies with Maxwell's equations, which imply that the speed of light should be a constant. And that cause problems with Galilean invariance. As if the speed of light is c only in a static frame, then you can measure the speed of light in your reference frame and you can tell that you are actually moving at a certain constant speed without looking outside. That'd be very bad.

Since Maxwell's equations are very accurate descriptions of electromagnetic waves, and Galilean invariance is an important basic law of physics, obviously one needs to find a way to incorporate both without contradiction. The first attempt was the "ether," which suggested that ether is an universal medium for the propagation of light. Then the speed of light is only constant w.r.t. the ether, not everything else. So we have the famous Michelson-Morley experiment, which tried to verify that light travels at different speed for different direction (as the earth is rotating around the sun, and the sun is rotating around the center of the Milky Way, which should be a quite complex movement w.r.t. the "static" ether). However, nothing was found. There is no difference between the speeds of light for different directions. So there must be other explanation. Lorentz suggested a transformation which makes Maxwell's equations compatible to Galilean invariance, but he didn't provide a satisfying explanation for the transformation (which is simply a mathematical construct). Einstein's special relativity provides the satisfying explanation for Lorentz transformation.

The whole point of everything is relativity. If I have a circle and let light travel that circle in one direction, light will have passed that circle at the speed of light, and the speed at which the circle has filled is distance * c. But now if I let light travel that circle in both directions, light will have passed that circle in (distance/2) * c. Therefore, if I were to assess the speed at which light travels left through the circle from the light travelling right through the circle, the speed at which one distances itself from the other (or closes in on the other, as this is a circle) is twice the speed of light.

The problem is, first, this is not compatible with experiment results. No experiment detects different speed of light (in the vaccum), whether the light source is moving at high speed or not. Second, if Maxwell's equations are correct (which is very likely to be the case), if you observe "twice the speed of light" then you can violate the Galilean invariance, that is, you can determine whether you are moving at a constant speed or not. This is also very unlikely.

Now, if there's another very nice clock which allows you to observe difference between it and a clock of light (e.g. it does not slow down when moving at a high speed), then you can use this clock to violate Galilean invariance. Since we believe that Galilean invariance is correct, there must not be such clock. That is, everything must slows down as the clock of light.
 
Observe and measure are not the same thing.
They are to a physicist.
The really interesting implications of Einstein, at least to me (and I am not properly schooled in this, so forgive me if I mess up the terminology), were simply that most of our observations are by sight, and Einstein made light itself a very definite part of the equation.
Human observations using light have nothing to do with it. Relativity applies to all experimental methods.
 
I really appreciate your explanation, pcchen, but I am not sure if you notice I am not questioning the speed of light being a constant. Just that the speed at which frame A is moving away from B is 2c. A and B are both travelling at the speed of light in opposite directions.

Anyway, light seems obviously less immune to outside influences, being able to be blocked far more easily. What if light is actually still always influenced by magnetic forces (as we know it can be) and neutrinos less so. What if they would both travel at the same speed given the right (absense of) conditions?

Also, inspired by a question posed earlier, what happens to light if you send it directly to a black hole? What would happen to a neutrino?
 
I really appreciate your explanation, pcchen, but I am not sure if you notice I am not questioning the speed of light being a constant. Just that the speed at which frame A is moving away from B is 2c. A and B are both travelling at the speed of light in opposite directions.

Well, if you accept that the speed of light is a constant in all inertial reference frame (which is supported by experiment results), there can't be a 2c or it's no longer a constant.

Anyway, light seems obviously less immune to outside influences, being able to be blocked far more easily. What if light is actually still always influenced by magnetic forces (as we know it can be) and neutrinos less so. What if they would both travel at the same speed given the right (absense of) conditions?

It doesn't matter though. Magnetic field is not part of a inertial reference frame, so if light is affected by a magnetic field, it does not violate Galilean invariance.

Also, inspired by a question posed earlier, what happens to light if you send it directly to a black hole? What would happen to a neutrino?

Both of them should be eaten by the black hole. As with magnetic field, gravity field is not part of a inertial frame. If there's a gravity field near you, you don't have to look outside as you already "feel" the force field (although general relativity is based on the principle that you can't tell a gravity field apart from a constant acceleration, locally).
 
I really appreciate your explanation, pcchen, but I am not sure if you notice I am not questioning the speed of light being a constant. Just that the speed at which frame A is moving away from B is 2c. A and B are both travelling at the speed of light in opposite directions.
Frames moving at speed of light themselves are unphysical.

Even if frames were traveling in opposite directions, the relative speed would not be 2c, it would be c. :yep2:, the that's relativity for you.
 
Therefore, Einstein's special relativity solves this problem, maintaining both observed facts that speed of light is constant and Galilean invariance. This leads to bizarre (but verified) predictions such as the c + c = c instead of 2c and time flows slower when moving at high speed.
I've learned this back in high school physics (although without invoking any Galilean invariances or Maxwell equations... :LOL:), but the implications of for example c + c = c sort of counteracts some stuff that astrophysicists work with daily, like for example the size of the visible universe, which is somewhere on the order of 13.7 billion light years.

That it's the VISIBLE size would imply there's more universe hidden beyond that distance, due to the expansion of the universe. Since some astrophysicists say this expansion is accelerating, this will eventually cause our sky to go dark as the rate of expansion increases. But if light always travels at the speed of light regardless of the frame of reference, shouldn't starlight catch up with us anyway...? :p

I assume the rate of expansion would have to be greater than c for our sky to start blacking out, but how would this not violate relativity? *shrug*
 
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