My response to the latest HardOCP editorial on benchmarks...

So where would we be if we used "game x" for a benchmarking tool for videocard reviews.
One game (X) closer to happier customers, rather than one benchmark closer to happier fanboys/PC ricers, as I said above. ;P

And what if this game is using videocard specific optimizations (like they do now). How is this any more fair of a benchmark?
Reading benchmarks is not mutually exclusive from understanding them--though a well-spoken reviewer can certainly lower the bar to comprehension for the average gamer (one not ga-ga over tech specs, like we are here at B3D).
 
3dmark03 was created with input from many video card manufacturers.
A game developer doesn't necessarily take input from all video card manufacturers. What games would you use for a benchmark tool? Games that are highly ATI optimized? Nvidia optimized? What does that tell you about your videocard performance? Should we be using benchmark tools that have "Nvidia, the way it's meant to be played" logos as the only benchmarks in a review? Does the performance in that particular game say much about the performance of your card? Especially if it is heavily optimized towards one card? No. Because my card runs great in jk2 doesn't mean it's going to run great in Dronez. It all comes down to how much optimization was put in for what card you have. Unless card makers start sticking to API specs rather than trying to create their extensions, and game makers start optimizing to API specs rather than to specific card extensions, one benchmark by itself means nothing. Having a review only using 3dmark for benchmarks would definitely suck. But included with other benchmarks it is valuable piece of information. To say, "we aren't going to use this benchmark at all" is completely ridiculous. Not putting as much weight on just 3dmark benches alone is wonderful. It should be used in conjunction with other benchmarks to give an overall picture of a cards performance.
 
I can entertain, in theory, their criticism of 3dMark2003, but it's mental masturbation until I see the source.

I'd also add it would be beneficial if the 3DMark beta team mailing list archives were made public domain now that the product is released.

Dialogue between the members (especially NVIDIA up/until December when they left this consortium) may also prove to be interesting.
 
I think the benchmark does a far better job than previous 3Dmark tests as it allows you to analyse the GPU v CPU relationship.
There are far too many ppl that think just throwing in the most powerful CPU will give them the ultimate gaming PC.
If you're trying to compare like for like then just using the DX7 test will do as a starting point:

___________FPS_____CPU____
NV-Ti4600 146.9 : 646 : Intel P4-3.06 heavily overclocked
Outlay :$200 + $600 = $800

ATI9700Pro 158.4 : 475 : Intel P4-2.4B
Outlay : $320 + $200 = $520

As you can see, ignoring any "extra features" like supporting PS1.4; if you are looking to buy a PC aimed at gaming then buying a far less expensive CPU and adding a little more to the graphics card yields far better results as not only is it a cheaper option but it's also faster.

HardOCP test results:
GFFX Ultra - 175.6 : 666 : $399 ??
9700 Pro - 175.1 : 713 : $320
Here we see that the DX7 test results are even but as the 9700Pro gets a higher CPU rating I would take that to mean that ingame the lowest fps would be higher especially when AI and other maths intensive ingame features are used.

Note: I am not suggesting that this would be the final result but it's a good starting point. I do think it's a shame that the benchmark doesn''t include full driver details as it would be useful to stop things like Nvidia and their 12bit Integer trick to create false scores.
 
I think the benchmark does a far better job than previous 3Dmark tests as it allows you to analyse the GPU v CPU relationship.
There are far too many ppl that think just throwing in the most powerful CPU will give them the ultimate gaming PC.
If you're trying to compare like for like then just using the DX7 test will do as a starting point:

Um, the reason the CPU doesn't affect 3DMark03 scores very much is because they purposely designed it to be that way. Real games tend to be much more platform-limited. If you want to compare the effect of better graphics hardware vs. a better CPU when running current DX7 games, I would suggest you look at benchmarks of current games.

I do think it's a shame that the benchmark doesn''t include full driver details as it would be useful to stop things like Nvidia and their 12bit Integer trick to create false scores.

:?: :?: :?:
 
Dave H

Isnt that what I just said? It performs almost seperate GPU and CPU tests therefore you can analyse the performance relations. There a very few benchmarks that demonstrate how a game is effected with different GPU / CPU combinations.
ie.. With a P3-1Ghz and R300 you can run UT2003 at max detail settings and get playable fps (35-75) - this is not possible with Ti4600. So, what CPU would be required to be able to use max detail... cost.. etc.
 
Isnt that what I just said? It performs almost seperate GPU and CPU tests therefore you can analyse the performance relations. There a very few benchmarks that demonstrate how a game is effected with different GPU / CPU combinations.

Ok, I see where you're going with this. Didn't follow that on the first read through.

Still I'm not sure how useful 3DMark03 is as a tool to tell you whether to spend more on the CPU or the GPU. It has one set of tests that are unrealistically GPU-limited, and another set which are unrealistically platform-limited, but what you want to know is which is more important for performance in normal gaming situations!
 
Dave H said:
Still I'm not sure how useful 3DMark03 is as a tool to tell you whether to spend more on the CPU or the GPU. It has one set of tests that are unrealistically GPU-limited, and another set which are unrealistically platform-limited, but what you want to know is which is more important for performance in normal gaming situations!
That is why it really isn't a "Gamers' Benchmark". There really isn't such a thing because different developers have differnt set of priorities - some take more advantage of the ever-increasing speed of CPUs while others do the same with GPUs. 3DMark has always been about letting folks know the potential of the features of GPUs and lets you see what such features can mean.
 
Like most topics at Beyond3D, this one seems to be made by a bunch of non gamers(or very casual ones) about non gaming situations.

Every time a new version of 3DMark comes out there is a group of vocal opponents who insist that it is no way represenative of actual gaming situations and as such shouldn't be used. We hear analysis and observations from numerous sources stating how the tests in no way show what future games are going to be like nor how the cards will stack up, and yet with every new release looking in hindsight the bench nearly always gives you a very clear picture of how boards will stack up in future games.

What we always end up with is a bunch of people who want to test 'current' games and show those results, and by 'current' they tend to mean a year or two old at least. The most recent title we are seeing used for benching purposes is UT2K3, a game that is ~six months old already and is held up as the best evidence of what 'future' games will perform like on given cards. I think that nearly every site should really consider a few things in terms of benching. Not so much here, as this audience tends to be far more interested in theoretical numbers(which makes sense as the audience can digest the info and figure out roughly where boards will stack up), but for sites such as H, Anand's, Tom's et al, they should really consider who it is they are writing for.

Who buys add in graphics cards?

The first response to this is not very many people. Then you have a few different categories. 3D professionals(CGI/CAD/MCAD) whom the major sites pay no real attention to(rightly so as they are such a small niche) and are rather irrelevant on this particular point.

Then you have hardware enthusiasts, whom nearly every tech site on the web targets their reviews at unfortunately. The people who want bragging rights, want to have the fastest rig they can possibly build budget allowing. Rarely(once a month or less is the norm) they will actually buy a game. They tend to spend significantly more on hardware then they do on games or applications that will actually utilize it. It is easy to understand how the people who write for the major sites can relate to these people the easiest, they go through the same motions of constantly upgrading their computers although they do so due to their line of work which tends to be the end of the spectrum they enjoy. Unfortunately, these people also tend to be the onest that wouldn't consider keeping a vid card for over a year in their rig, why would anyone mind dropping $300-$1000 a year, every year, on hardware upgrades? It shouldn't really surprise anyone that these people tend to focus their reviews on the smallest niche of purchasers of add in boards. Unfortunately for FM's crediblity, a lot of these same people use their bench as the ruler to measure their silicon penis.

Then you have the overwhelming majority, the people that aren't represented by any of the mainstream sites, actual gamers. People who somewhat grudgingly hand over six or eight new games worth of money because they have to upgrade. These people tend to move six or more 'GPU' generations at a time. This is where the real market is, the people who never register for a hardware sites forums(as a general example, AT has 2Million unique monthly vistors and ~100K registered forum users, a 20:1 disparity). These people tend to hang out in gaming forums if they spend too much time in discussion forums at all. Most of them don't want to look like a moron and will stick to their gaming based forums when they have a question.

These are the people that come to sites looking for the best purchasing decission and so often are led to a conclusion that doesn't match their needs due to hardware reviewers basing their observations on what their needs are. Their needs overwhelmingly are what ever plays 'today's'(usually a year or more older) games the best, while the typical purchaser of an add in 3D board will see a quantum leap in today's new games no matter which board they end up going with.

This is where a bench like 3DMark03 comes in so damn handy. If you look at a system that score 6K in 03 vs one that scores 2K odds are damn near certain that that 6K rig will be playing games a whole hell of a lot faster, likely in the 3x as fast range, then the rig that scored 2K a year or two down the road, the time that purchasers in this bracket tend to care the most about.

When I read a review in hardware enthusiast mode I do tend to skip right over the 3DMark score, when I'm actually looking to purchase a piece of hardware to use in my gaming rig I pay real close attention to the scores. From a hardware enthusiast point of view I care about whether a board can push 135 or 150FPS in Quake3 running 16x12x4x8, as an actual consumer I care a lot more about the likely framerate of Quake4, a cursory glance at Q3, SeriousSam, JKII scores at most a mild interest in UT2K3 and a lot of attention directed at synthetics and other benches such as CodeCreatures. Any new high end board is going to scream in old games, any simpleton can very easily deduce as much, gamers don't need twenty pages worth of review to explain that simple point.

For the reviews here, they make no qualms about what their pretenses are, 3D technology. When sites drop the singular bench with the best track record at predicting future games and still make any claims at being a games based 3D board review they are fooling themselves and more distressingly, fooling those that don't know any better.

Image quality and features are important aspects also, although we are truly well in to the point of splitting hairs comparing the highest end boards now(not that it should be ignored). Expand IQ segments and compare per pixel differences that trained eyes pretty much exclusively catch in motion, expand benches of year plus old or older games and drop the most important aspect to most gamers and consumers.

Apologies if this rant is a bit long, I have had a bit of an epiphany as I have been recently looking to overhaul my rig and realized that I had to reread almost every review I already had read due to ignoring what really mattered when it came down to it, and then realized that nearly every site that claims to be gaming based in their reviews simply ignores what is important. How are the games I'm going to buy going to run? Yet another Quake3 bench sure as hell doesn't do me any good there, but 3DMark03 does.
 
We hear analysis and observations from numerous sources stating how the tests in no way show what future games are going to be like nor how the cards will stack up, and yet with every new release looking in hindsight the bench nearly always gives you a very clear picture of how boards will stack up in future games.

Bingo.

I stated this in a thread a while back about 3DMark 2001. That despite the bithcing and moaning (that even I) did about that version....when you ranked cards accoding to their score, it was pretty much in agreement with how we would rank those cards anyway.

This is where a bench like 3DMark03 comes in so damn handy. If you look at a system that score 6K in 03 vs one that scores 2K odds are damn near certain that that 6K rig will be playing games a whole hell of a lot faster, likely in the 3x as fast range, then the rig that scored 2K a year or two down the road, the time that purchasers in this bracket tend to care the most about.

This, I actually disagree with. ;) I would word it like this:

If you look at a system that scores 6K in 03 vs. onw that scores 2K, the odds are damn near certain that the 6K rig will have a much higher "ability to play future games" than the 2K rig a year or two down the road.

It's not necessarily 3X faster...but 3X "better." Combination of higher performance and/or better ability to see higher quality visuals.

The most recent title we are seeing used for benching purposes is UT2K3, a game that is ~six months old already and is held up as the best evidence of what 'future' games will perform like on given cards.

What I find pretty distubing in nVidia's "Whine Paper" (thanks to whoever coined that term), is that they suggest using Doom3!

Well, that's all well and good....if Doom3 were available to do benchmarks with...
 
Addition...
Earlier in this thead. I suggested that we look and see how 3DMark03 is actually stacking up the cards. Look at the results and see if they meet the general "expectations" of how we would have "subjectively ranked" the ability to play future games. This is what I said that I would expect to see, if 3D Mark03 scores were reasonable:

1) DX7 cards like Radeon 7xxx, GeForce2/4 MX. All grouped together at the bottom of the heap.

2) DX8 cards like Radeon 8500, GeForce3/4. A step change above the DX7 cards. Radeon 8500 should probably fall somewhere above the GeForce3 series, and below or near the bottom section of the GeForce4 Ti series.

3) DX9 cards with "moderate" performance, like GeForceFX non-ultra, and Radeon 9500/9500 Pro. A step change above the DX8 cards.

4) "Top of the line" DX9 cards like the FX Ultra and Radeon 9700. A step above the lower DX9 cards...but in a predictable way based on pixel filling performance.

And here are some preliminary results from TechReport:

http://www.tech-report.com/etc/2003q1/3dmark03/index.x?pg=3
Code:
1) GeForce4MX:            284
2) Parhelia:              899
2) Radeon 9000 Pro        1087
4) GeForce4Ti 4200:       1555
5) GeForce4Ti 4600:       1824
6) Radeon  9500 Pro:      3500
7) Radeon 9700 Pro:       4546

Seems pretty much in line with my predictions, and is completely reasonable...
 
BenSkywalker, nice rant. As for me, I just upgrade when I can get something significantly better than I had for cheap. Right now, my P3-700 plus GeForce3 runs UT2003 and NOLF2 (demos) fine. Not at the highest detail level perhaps, but I don't need the highest detail level to enjoy a game.

I bought the GeForce3 second hand a while back for under $100, from someone who tends to upgrade to the new cards when they come out. So it's good to have people like that. :LOL: And I give me old cards to people who are even less hardware enthusiasts than I am. A friend got my old GeForce256 to upgrade his TNT.

I'm telling you, for cheapskates like me, who don't care much about playing the latest games, getting a couple year old hardware and games is the way to go.
 
I upgrade the video card on a 1.5 year schedule, have been doing that forever. If you can't get 1.5 years out of $400 dollar high end video card there is a problem.
The Platform is upgraded on a yearly basis for me, either CPU or Motherboard, I recently installed a Nforce 2 plus 9700 Combo and that will carry me through easily till next year.

ATI and Nvidia claiming the release cycle will start to widen for video cards is a good thing, 6 month product cycles are not realistic IMO, the hardware has advanced so far beyond what developers use, what's the point.
 
Joe DeFuria said:
Code:
1) GeForce4MX:            284
2) Parhelia:              899
2) Radeon 9000 Pro        1087
4) GeForce4Ti 4200:       1555
5) GeForce4Ti 4600:       1824
6) Radeon  9500 Pro:      3500
7) Radeon 9700 Pro:       4546

Seems pretty much in line with my predictions, and is completely reasonable...
Excuse me, but do you really think in 18 month the 9700 pro will be 2.5 faster than the 4600, at 1024*768 without AA and AF? Are you crazy?
 
If a game is coded with Pixel Shader 2.0 (which a Ti4600 can't even do) and the game has alot of shaders, and the Ti4600 is forced to multipass with PS 1.1...sure its possible.

We are talking DX9 Hardware here and games, not 2 year old DX8.
 
Even the FX is very slow at PS 2.0 (Dx9), the 9700 is almost 3x faster at rendering Pixel Shader 2.0.


1044928685ymTd7LNuhM_4_4_l.gif


FX=15.5 fps
9700=41 fps
 
Excuse me, but do you really think in 18 month the 9700 pro will be 2.5 faster than the 4600, at 1024*768 without AA and AF? Are you crazy?

Excuse ME?!

Did you read ANY OF MY POSTS about what the 3DMark score MEANS?! :rolleyes:

HINT: IT'S NOT SIMPLY ABOUT RELATIVE PERFORMANCE.

Sigh...

BIGGER HINT: Look a few posts up...I said, and I'll add EMPHASIS so that you don't THINK I'M CRAZY:

If you look at a system that scores 6K in 03 vs. onw that scores 2K, the odds are damn near certain that the 6K rig will have a much higher "ability to play future games" than the 2K rig a year or two down the road.

It's not necessarily 3X faster...but 3X "better." Combination of higher performance and/or better ability to see higher quality visuals.
 
Back
Top