My god... The world is ending..

Natoma

Veteran
http://www.amconmag.com/03_24_03/cover.html

I actually find myself agreeing with Pat Buchanan. :oops:

When the Cold War ended, these neoconservatives began casting about for a new crusade to give meaning to their lives. On Sept. 11, their time came. They seized on that horrific atrocity to steer America’s rage into all-out war to destroy their despised enemies, the Arab and Islamic “rogue states†that have resisted U.S. hegemony and loathe Israel.

The War Party’s plan, however, had been in preparation far in advance of 9/11. And when President Bush, after defeating the Taliban, was looking for a new front in the war on terror, they put their precooked meal in front of him. Bush dug into it.

Before introducing the script-writers of America’s future wars, consider the rapid and synchronized reaction of the neocons to what happened after that fateful day.

On Sept. 12, Americans were still in shock when Bill Bennett told CNN that we were in “a struggle between good and evil,†that the Congress must declare war on “militant Islam,†and that “overwhelming force†must be used. Bennett cited Lebanon, Libya, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and China as targets for attack. Not, however, Afghanistan, the sanctuary of Osama’s terrorists. How did Bennett know which nations must be smashed before he had any idea who attacked us?

The Wall Street Journal immediately offered up a specific target list, calling for U.S. air strikes on “terrorist camps in Syria, Sudan, Libya, and Algeria, and perhaps even in parts of Egypt.†Yet, not one of Bennett’s six countries, nor one of these five, had anything to do with 9/11.

On Sept. 15, according to Bob Woodward’s Bush at War, “Paul Wolfowitz put forth military arguments to justify a U.S. attack on Iraq rather than Afghanistan.†Why Iraq? Because, Wolfowitz argued in the War Cabinet, while “attacking Afghanistan would be uncertain … Iraq was a brittle oppressive regime that might break easily. It was doable.â€

On Sept. 20, forty neoconservatives sent an open letter to the White House instructing President Bush on how the war on terror must be conducted. Signed by Bennett, Podhoretz, Kirkpatrick, Perle, Kristol, and Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer, the letter was an ultimatum. To retain the signers’ support, the president was told, he must target Hezbollah for destruction, retaliate against Syria and Iran if they refuse to sever ties to Hezbollah, and overthrow Saddam. Any failure to attack Iraq, the signers warned Bush, “will constitute an early and perhaps decisive surrender in the war on international terrorism.â€

Here was a cabal of intellectuals telling the Commander-in-Chief, nine days after an attack on America, that if he did not follow their war plans, he would be charged with surrendering to terror. Yet, Hezbollah had nothing to do with 9/11. What had Hezbollah done? Hezbollah had humiliated Israel by driving its army out of Lebanon.

President Bush had been warned. He was to exploit the attack of 9/11 to launch a series of wars on Arab regimes, none of which had attacked us. All, however, were enemies of Israel. “Bibi†Netanyahu, the former Prime Minister of Israel, like some latter-day Citizen Genet, was ubiquitous on American television, calling for us to crush the “Empire of Terror.†The “Empire,†it turns out, consisted of Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Iraq, and “the Palestinian enclave.â€

Nasty as some of these regimes and groups might be, what had they done to the United States?

The War Party seemed desperate to get a Middle East war going before America had second thoughts. Tom Donnelly of the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) called for an immediate invasion of Iraq. “Nor need the attack await the deployment of half a million troops. … [T]he larger challenge will be occupying Iraq after the fighting is over,†he wrote.

Donnelly was echoed by Jonah Goldberg of National Review: “The United States needs to go to war with Iraq because it needs to go to war with someone in the region and Iraq makes the most sense.â€

Goldberg endorsed “the Ledeen Doctrine†of ex-Pentagon official Michael Ledeen, which Goldberg described thus: “Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show we mean business.†(When the French ambassador in London, at a dinner party, asked why we should risk World War III over some “shitty little countryâ€â€”meaning Israel—Goldberg’s magazine was not amused.)

Ledeen, however, is less frivolous. In The War Against the Terror Masters, he identifies the exact regimes America must destroy:

First and foremost, we must bring down the terror regimes, beginning with the Big Three: Iran, Iraq, and Syria. And then we have to come to grips with Saudi Arabia. … Once the tyrants in Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Saudi Arabia have been brought down, we will remain engaged. …We have to ensure the fulfillment of the democratic revolution. … Stability is an unworthy American mission, and a misleading concept to boot. We do not want stability in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and even Saudi Arabia; we want things to change. The real issue is not whether, but how to destabilize.

Rejecting stability as “an unworthy American mission,†Ledeen goes on to define America’s authentic “historic missionâ€:

Creative destruction is our middle name, both within our society and abroad. We tear down the old order every day, from business to science, literature, art, architecture, and cinema to politics and the law. Our enemies have always hated this whirlwind of energy and creativity which menaces their traditions (whatever they may be) and shames them for their inability to keep pace. … [W]e must destroy them to advance our historic mission.

Passages like this owe more to Leon Trotsky than to Robert Taft and betray a Jacobin streak in neoconservatism that cannot be reconciled with any concept of true conservatism.

The article is longer than this snippet, but I actually found it to be an interesting read. Will wonders never cease.........
 
That article snippet is interesting and it seems contemporary, but I will say that this is not US-specific nor is it specific to this age.

It is a matter of history repeating itself.
 
I sadly agree with some of what buchanan says... I dont think what those neo cons and their orgs want will be given to them by Bush tho... I think Iraq was the last major operation. Short of new major terror attacks...

I think the only other country that merits scrutiny and diplomatic pressure is saudi arabia. We have to find a way to get them to stop funding some of the radical wahabi schools.
 
What's wrong with Buchanan? Name one position of his that's so frightening that would justify these groans. (besides anti-free trade stupidity)

What's funny is that the liberals, in the 1990's, were the happy foot-soldiers of the neo-"conservatives," when the neocons were still weak, by helping demonize Buchanan and the old right and take over my former party. I really hope they are happy.
 
Oh, I think Iran needs a kick the in the pants, though not military intervention (yet). Their populace does not seem to be happy with their regime at all, and I hope that (someday soon) they'll be able to do unto the Ayatollahs what the Ayatollahs did unto the Shah.

Saudi Arabia needs military intervention, but the tiny little place called Mecca will make that politically impossible. Hopefully, Iraq will allow us to be free from the teat of the Saudi spigot and allow the US to boycott Saudi oil, rather them boycotting selling to us.
 
akira888 said:
What's wrong with Buchanan? Name one position of his that's so frightening that would justify these groans. (besides anti-free trade stupidity)

Start on his positions on women's rights, gay rights, and the religion of Islam after the 9/11 attacks for starters. ;)

akira888 said:
What's funny is that the liberals, in the 1990's, were the happy foot-soldiers of the neo-"conservatives," when the neocons were still weak, by helping demonize Buchanan and the old right and take over my former party. I really hope they are happy.

:LOL:

The only reason the neo-cons "took over" is because they got in good with the current administration. Just like any other political power. You get in good with a president's administration, and voila, you've got the power to reshape the world. These shifts can take place every 4 years. That's why I press my non-voting democratic friends to vote all the time. :)
 
RussSchultz said:
Oh, I think Iran needs a kick the in the pants, though not military intervention (yet). Their populace does not seem to be happy with their regime at all, and I hope that (someday soon) they'll be able to do unto the Ayatollahs what the Ayatollahs did unto the Shah.

Agreed.

RussSchultz said:
Saudi Arabia needs military intervention, but the tiny little place called Mecca will make that politically impossible. Hopefully, Iraq will allow us to be free from the teat of the Saudi spigot and allow the US to boycott Saudi oil, rather them boycotting selling to us.

One of the things that really hurts me regarding this is that we really had the power last year to move our nation away from dependence on foreign oil, i.e. the legislature bi-partisanly defeated in the Congress, with the full approval of the administration, that would have raised CAFE standards for all cars and trucks, as well as closed the SUV loophole.

While Bush spoke about allocating funds to Hydrogen research, no funding has appeared as of yet, and Hydrogen is at least 10 years away. Hybrid technology is here today. Even an average 10mpg increase would save us millions of bbl a day. Theoretically enough to significantly reduce our dependence on the Saudis and other hostile regimes in the middle east.

But c'est la vie....
 
Why does that tiny little place called Mecca make military intervention politically impossible Russ?
 
Tahir said:
Why does that tiny little place called Mecca make military intervention politically impossible Russ?

Wouldn't it cause too much of an uproar and lend credibility to the cause of the terrorist groups? "the infidels have taken Mecca" Not too say that all Muslims would react this way but wouldn't there be a great many who would? Aren't Muslims in general opposed to the action the US took in Iraq? Wouldn't they be more so opposed to that sort of measure in Saudi Arabia? The answers are quite nearly self evident, at least I would have thought. What do you suppose the reaction would be like Tahir? Hypothetically speaking of course and never mind the UN. Not being a Muslim, I am curious as too what you are thinking here.
 
I'm thinking of the pro's and con's.
What would be the justification for military intervention in Saudi Arabia given to the people? A regime change? Get rid of the terrorists and support?
What has Saudi Arabia as a goverment done wrong to base military invention as a viable option, specifically? I thought Saudi Arabia and the US were on very good terms.
What kind of military intervention would be best? Something similar to Iraq?

Most muslims did oppose the Iraq war but so did a lot of other non-muslims around the world. What kind of repurcussion would it have on the US?

All hypothetically speaking because Russ brought it up.

Overall do you think it is a good idea Sabastian?

I believe it would be an error and would hurt the US as well as the muslims globally. However if the end results are good does it justify the means? (What I would like to know what will be the end result as well?).

A lot of questions but I have heard someone else say something similar(ish). But I dont quite realise how it would benefit the US.
 
Another thing that kills me, you know all these people that moan and groan about our foreign depenance on oil?? If the middle east was not selling oil where would they make any money? These same people would then turn around and bitch that we need to give the middle east money because they got used to it from selling us oil.
 
Tahir said:
I'm thinking of the pro's and con's.
What would be the justification for military intervention in Saudi Arabia given to the people? A regime change? Get rid of the terrorists and support?
What has Saudi Arabia as a goverment done wrong to base military invention as a viable option, specifically? I thought Saudi Arabia and the US were on very good terms.
What kind of military intervention would be best? Something similar to Iraq?

Most muslims did oppose the Iraq war but so did a lot of other non-muslims around the world. What kind of repurcussion would it have on the US?

All hypothetically speaking because Russ brought it up.

Overall do you think it is a good idea Sabastian?

I believe it would be an error and would hurt the US as well as the muslims globally. However if the end results are good does it justify the means? (What I would like to know what will be the end result as well?).

A lot of questions but I have heard someone else say something similar(ish). But I dont quite realise how it would benefit the US.

No I don't think it would be horribly smart at this point for the US to try to pull that off. The cons outweigh the pros particularly in terms of cost. Regime change in Iraq and Afghanistan were fairly easy to rationalize. I think though that the relationship presently between the US and Saudi Arabia is very business like. The end result is a long term perspective or outlook that is quite nearly impossible to predict. All I know is that democracy has done well by me and that in both the countries in question the process of transforming from dictatorial models to democratic models has been greatly accelerated by the hand of the US. Oh it may be that the demographic in question rejects the whole notion of democracy but I would suggest that this would be an error on their behalf in my very humble opinion of course.

Too absolutely rule out the option of attacking the regime in Saudi Arabia would be foolhardy as well though. The way things are right now there should be more then a couple of regimes in the Middle East watching their step. The US has great stake in the success of their missions in both Iraq and Afghanistan. The power of the US military in terms of being able to undermine any of the power of these regimes ought to weigh heavily on the minds of certain dictatorial countries in the region. Again to see the benefit you have to look into the future and while I don't have a crystal ball in front of me a liberated people in the future may well look favorably towards the US for such acts.

From the UN's perspective you are looking at a wide variety of countries that want more clout economically and politically. In the case of France, Germany, Russia their opposition to the military action in Iraq was strategic from what I can see, in other words they had a stake in Saddam's regime staying in power while the US saw it as a liability. Then of course there were a wide range of Islamic nations whose populace has a negative impression of the US in an evident manner.

I don't think that the opposition to the US actions in the Middle East are credible ones and so I believe the long term negative effects on the US will be fairly minute.
 
The Saudis committed the crime of funding and exporting extremist terrorist "islam". We committed the crime of supporting them for the past 5 decades. The only reason they're beginning to turn is because the ones they funded are now coming back and blowing up the homeland.

Let's not forget that 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saud, as is Osama Bin Laden and most of his Al-Qaeda bretheren. That alone says a lot about the structure their government supports. As I said a few months ago, if we were going to take out any middle east regime, it should not have been Iraq. Ideally it should have been Saudi Arabia, the hotbed of terrorism in the world.
 
Natoma said:
The Saudis committed the crime of funding and exporting extremist terrorist "islam". We committed the crime of supporting them for the past 5 decades. The only reason they're beginning to turn is because the ones they funded are now coming back and blowing up the homeland.

Let's not forget that 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saud, as is Osama Bin Laden and most of his Al-Qaeda bretheren. That alone says a lot about the structure their government supports. As I said a few months ago, if we were going to take out any middle east regime, it should not have been Iraq. Ideally it should have been Saudi Arabia, the hotbed of terrorism in the world.

When you say that are you blaming the Saudi government or the Saudi people? What are the links with the Saudi government and Al Qaeda.

I say this because if you take out the Saudi government with the intention of stamping out terrorist group members being of Saudi descent then what if the trend continues when a new government is in place?

Who do you take out then?
 
Tahir said:
Natoma said:
The Saudis committed the crime of funding and exporting extremist terrorist "islam". We committed the crime of supporting them for the past 5 decades. The only reason they're beginning to turn is because the ones they funded are now coming back and blowing up the homeland.

Let's not forget that 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saud, as is Osama Bin Laden and most of his Al-Qaeda bretheren. That alone says a lot about the structure their government supports. As I said a few months ago, if we were going to take out any middle east regime, it should not have been Iraq. Ideally it should have been Saudi Arabia, the hotbed of terrorism in the world.

When you say that are you blaming the Saudi government or the Saudi people? What are the links with the Saudi government and Al Qaeda.

I say this because if you take out the Saudi government with the intention of stamping out terrorist group members being of Saudi descent then what if the trend continues when a new government is in place?

Who do you take out then?

Saudi Government. The reports I've read show that the majority of the people in Saudi Arabia despise the government and the excesses of the Saudi Royal Family. The only thing is that the government has somewhat perfected the process of deflecting that anger and hatred toward America. Not only that, but they squash any and all dissent where possible.

Now obviously there is always the problem that an even more extremist regime could rise up. But then, that's the same problem facing us in Iraq. Once we leave and they hold elections, what's to keep a fundamentalist sunni Islamic government from being elected to power and reversing everything we've done? Time will tell I suppose. Unfortunately it doesn't seem our administration planned too far ahead for that possible contingency.

Now keep in mind, I realize that there are huge problems with taking out Saudi Arabia. All I'm saying is that if the administration were truly serious, it would have been making all of that bellicose talk and grand standing toward our true enemy in terrorism. Not an impotent wannabe warlord with no WMD.
 
Once we leave and they hold elections, what's to keep a fundamentalist sunni Islamic government from being elected to power and reversing everything we've done?

Isn't it pretty obvious that that's whats going to happen?
 
zurich said:
Once we leave and they hold elections, what's to keep a fundamentalist sunni Islamic government from being elected to power and reversing everything we've done?

Isn't it pretty obvious that that's whats going to happen?

They will be severely restricted by newly enacted constitutional law and that is a good thing. It isn't a given ether that they would elect yet another despot type government. Further there will be other pressing matters and should any elected government fail to meet these certain needs there is always another election where the electorate can rectify their mistake.
 
What if when the people vote, they vote for a fundamentalist sunni government?
Then what is next?
Is there any proof that the Saudi government is supporting Al Qaeda as well?

Will people be able to vote for a fundamentalist sunni party? What then, if the people vote for them in the majority?

I dont actually see any good - except for more war.

Is there an other way that anyone can suggest in removing the terrorist threat that does not entail military intervention?

Edit: pax has already made a suggetion if you read his earlier post.
 
Tahir said:
What if when the people vote, they vote for a fundamentalist sunni government?
Then what is next?
Is there any proof that the Saudi government is supporting Al Qaeda as well?

Will people be able to vote for a fundamentalist sunni party? What then, if the people vote for them in the majority?

I dont actually see any good - except for more war.

Is there an other way that anyone can suggest in removing the terrorist threat that does not entail military intervention?

Edit: pax has already made a suggetion if you read his earlier post.

Again the elected government will be severely restricted by constitutional law. Further opposition parties are harsh in their opposition and they can do so without fear of reprisals from current elected officials. Once more I say in the long run democracy will have a positive effect in the countries in question. This is not to say there won't be growing pains so to speak but in the long run things will not be so .... unconstructive. Not to belittle your concerns on the matter they are legit without a doubt but there is good reason particularly in the long run that things won't be so negative.(puts crystal ball away.)
 
And if the people keep on voting for a fundamentalist sunni government?
The constitution is only as powerful as the will to act upon it and to obey it.
At times the constitution is either changed or ignored temporarily to acheive a goal.

Democracy works if you allow the people a choice but what if the choice the people make is not what you propose?

What if the people elect to be run by a government that bases its constitution on say, Shari'ah law?

Back to the terrorists, there are reports of the Afghani/Pakistan border in the North Western frontiers where there is a lot of Taliban activity/training.

Should there be a regime change in Pakistan as well to get rid of the problem on the North Western Frontier borders?
 
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