My god... The world is ending..

[Tahir2]

No one has mentioned an alternative, I guess that means the only real option is military intervention or put in other words, an attack. Of course civilians will die but they wont be targetted. It is their fault anyway for not taking care of the problem of their government/monarchy that irrefutably supports terrorism.
The eventually after a few teething problems the people will vote for a moderate democratic government but if they dont we can 'intervene' again until an acceptable government is found. Meanwhile the terrorists will disappear off the face of the planet or at the very least have the courtesy of relocating to Syria.. or Yemen. I have heard there is a lot of support for AQ there too. But thats OK we can 'intervene' in Yemen as well and all those school that teach children to hate the westerners will be got rid of as well. Perhaps after that the terrorist organisations will go after and join with Hizbullah or some such other group widening the search to Lebanon and Iran. We can remove those governments too and make a state of democracy where the people get to vote for a moderate government again. If they dont vote for one we can then 'intervene' again and perhaps limit the candidates in the first instance.
By this time the other muslim nations dotted around the planet can get into gear and many revolutions later there will be need no for any US intervention at all.

.... just an idea.

P.S. I am not concerned at all, we are only talking of a hypothetical situation. Perhaps this hypothetical situation is the ideal?

Edit: typo

 

[Sabastian]

And if the people keep on voting for a fundamentalist sunni government?
The constitution is only as powerful as the will to act upon it and to obey it.
At times the constitution is either changed or ignored temporarily to acheive a goal.

Democracy works if you allow the people a choice but what if the choice the people make is not what you propose?

What if the people elect to be run by a government that bases its constitution on say, Shari'ah law?

Back to the terrorists, there are reports of the Afghani/Pakistan border in the North Western frontiers where there is a lot of Taliban activity/training.

Should there be a regime change in Pakistan as well to get rid of the problem on the North Western Frontier borders?

AFAIK any approved constitution will be in place before elections. If the electorate insist on militant opposition that government will be viewed as a hostile one. War, yet again may prevail particularly if the electorate insist on it.

There is no sense in going on about other hostile regimes IMO. The capacity was there before the US acted and so if it was not delimited as of yet is of no real consequence, if it was lessoned in some way then good. The fact of the matter is that real opportunity for change has been placed before these people, hopefully they choose to accept this change in its entirety. Should they choose war over peace and democracy then .... I suppose that is what they will get.

 

[Tahir2]

So now we are not fighting for terrorism alone, but the goal posts are widened to democracy?
Hmm it does sound a little like accept 'my' ideology or 'choose' war to me.

My personal thoughts... did anyone actually read the article posted on the first page properly?

 

[pax]

Im not saying no funding of wahabi schools should happen. But moderation of the teachings have already occured in some areas. Wahabi is actually waning in its fanatical form. We need only keep it on its moderatring route and demand openness of the saudis as to who gets what interms of funding. There is absolutely no need to attack saudi arabia.

If we do care about engaging those in the saudi and arabian world in order to deter and prevent terrorism we cna do a few things ourselves. By demanding that the saudi regime moderate itself... hopefully over time evolve into a constitutional monarchy. Tear up the scam oil deals which have gutted saudi incomes. Its our corporations who scammed them with the help of the corrupt saudi royals...

We know better incomes help. Look at the benefit we are getting from engaging iraqis by tripling pensions and quadrupling the incomes of soldiers under coalition authority. Money talks and bullshit walks is that greatest of american sayings. Itll take time. We certainly took our time in finally agreeing to the religious idea that saudi arabia is holy land and westerners cant go there under normal circumstances... And itll help to have us leave finally...

A multi pronged approach is needed but saying we need to bomb saudi arabia is likely the same thing as wishing for armaggedon.

 

[Sabastian]

So now we are not fighting for terrorism alone, but the goal posts are widened to democracy?
Hmm it does sound a little like accept 'my' ideology or 'choose' war to me.

Exactly. The fundamentalist are just that way "accept 'my' ideology". The "hotbed" of terrorism isn't in one country, it is founded in Islamic fundamentalism. Should you have a different way of life then you are the enemy and so the US becomes "the head of the great snake". We have had this sort of debate before and it isn't really necessary that we go down that road again. We know full well the US has far more tolerant society then Islamic cultures. Just try opening up a church in Saudi Arabia compared with a mosque in Detroit or Toronto for that matter. Once more I say that it is Islam that must do some internal soul searching and resolve these matters. This split in your religion is a desperate precursor to more of the same in the future.

 

[kyleb]

best i can tell, what we need to do in Saudi Arabia is stop funding their royal family. i mean it seems pretty obvious to me that the only reason the common Saudi people even know who we are is because we buy their oil. granted they also know that they live in third world conditions; and, the few people that control the oil live in mansions and drive jaguars and dominate the masses with measly hand-me-downs all coming from the western world.

so best i can tell we created our on problem, and using war as a solution is somewhat akin to a child smashing his nintendo when he gets frustrated with the game. a more constructive way to handle the situation would be place an embargo on their oil and create a standard of living improvement program similar to the Iraqi "food for oil" deal. surely it would be less likely to have mass unrest rallied against us if we were doing such things to help them without all the killing beforehand like we pulled in Iraq, and it would cost a lot less too.

oh and Thair, i read the clip; i'll get to the whole article when i get over this cold.

 

[RussSchultz]

The Saudi government must give up their autocracy/plutocracy and give power to the people. The same with Syria, the same with Iran.

My personal opinion is that we need to enforce democracy, though not necessarily one friendly to us. If the populace elects all mullahs, then so be it. As long as these mullahs are subject to the will of the people, I feel they will eventually moderate. Extremists do not stay elected, as (in general) the human populace is not bent on self destruction, and is more interested in self preservation. International recognition, and participation in the world markets is beneficial to everybody, and I presume people will love their pepsi more than they love spreading the caliphate.

If I'm wrong, and the populace wants to continue the funding of terrorism in their misguided Jihad or turn a willful blind eye to it, then I would have no qualms about subjugating nations with a real military conquest and occupation. I'm all for not forcing my culture on anybody else, but I'm for damn sure not going to put up with a culture that wants nothing more than to end mine and backs that up with continuous action.

 

[L233]

granted they also know that they live in third world conditions; and, the few people that control the oil live in mansions and drive jaguars and dominate the masses with measly hand-me-downs all coming from the western world.

That's quite an exaggeration.

Britannica:

The government's social-welfare system covers all workers and provides benefits for unemployment, work injury, sickness, maternity, disability, and old age. The system also offers free medicine and medical care to all citizens and foreign residents. Saudi physicians have access to some of the world's most advanced medical equipment at the King Faisal Medical City, located on the outskirts of Riyadh. Health and sanitary conditions in Saudi Arabia remain generally poor, however, and there is a shortage of medical personnel. Diseases such as malaria, trachoma, tuberculosis, dysentery, and cholera still infect large numbers of people. The infant mortality rate is relatively high--even for the Middle East; life expectancy is only 63 years.

The government provides free education to all students. The educational system consists of six-year elementary schools, three-year intermediate schools, and three-year secondary schools. Saudi institutions of higher learning encompass two-year technical and commercial colleges and four-year universities. Some Saudi students are given scholarships for university study abroad; virtually all of these return to assume jobs in Saudi Arabia. Despite the country's high illiteracy rate--which stands at approximately two-fifths the population of more than 15 years of age--the government does not require children to attend school.

Yeah, high illiteracy rate, poor health and sanitary conditions but on the other hand free health care, free education, unemployment welfare etc.

If that's Third World, then what is Haiti, Mexico, Peru and most of sub-saharan Africa?

The Saudi royal family showers the people with benefits paid for with oil money (to keep them in line). I wonder which are the hand-me-downs coming from the Western world you are referring to.
[/quote]

 

[kyleb]

you almost awnsered your own question L233.

the helth care, education, and such are the hand-me-downs from the western world i was referring too; and the rest of it is rather third world for the average Saudi.

 

[pax]

I dont think saudi arabia ever got free hand me downs from the western world. What they have they paid for. But its clear that the average saudi didnt profit from the exploitation of their own oil as much as they should have... average saudi incomes are about half what they are in the us.