My email interview about Xenos with Michael Doggett

[Bill]

Well, I've made my position on the EDRAM known.

A) 720P is not bandwidth limited at 128 bit bus, therefore EDRAM is unneeded.

B) If X360 games dont look better than PS3 games with more transistors dedicated to graphics, it failed.

 

[pakpassion]

Well, I've made my position on the EDRAM known.

A) 720P is not bandwidth limited at 128 bit bus, therefore EDRAM is unneeded.

B) If X360 games dont look better than PS3 games with more transistors dedicated to graphics, it failed.

if they have to look better, they will after PS3 is released. not in first generation

 

[Pozer]

Awesome.

I still wonder about the EDRAM. More bandwidth is good for what if we're not bandwidth limited at 720P?

But the shader power is interesting. Exactly as I had tabbed it. R520 has 40 ALU's at 625 mhz. Xenos 48 at 500. So I figured they were close.
And I'd ask him again, if EDRAM makes a card more powerful as he states, why is it not in the PC parts?

Your always bandwidth limited. If your not, you need to add more eye candy.

Edram will allow more fancy particle effects. Thats one of the reasons why Burnout Revenge looks better on the ps2 than xbox.

 

[pakpassion]

Your always bandwidth limited. If your not, you need to add more eye candy.

Edram will allow more fancy particle effects. Thats one of the reasons why Burnout Revenge looks better on the ps2 than xbox.

I swear the ending of FEAR sucked!!!

 

[Alpha_Spartan]

If tiling caused a card to be more powerful, than a a EDRAM PC card would be made.

MS doesn't own the patent on EDRAM. That's ridiculous.
The real question is, would ATI add 100 million transistors to R520 for little gain (EDRAM)?

I remain to see what EDRAM DOES?

Well, well, it holds stuff!

(But the stuff works fine without it anyway)

The EDRAM daughter die has more than storage it has z-buffer and stencil logic as well. MS owns the patent for it and wrote the compilers. ATi can't use it without MS permission.

 

[SirTendeth]

Sorry Bill, but in the console environment, EDRAM makes a lot of sense, and so does Tiling, because it’s fixed hardware and target resolutions.

It creates a great bang for the buck ratio, and in an economy that has the console manufacturer subsidizing the cost of hardware, that is very important.

In Sony’s case this round, they could safely assume that the six month release window difference between them and Microsoft, would ensure that the performance of the PS3 would at least be comparable to the 360.

Then they would look at what made the original XBOX a contender last round- and that was Microsoft strength in the PC world. It gave the last out of the gate hardware lots of title support.

This time with a PC based technology they are hoping to woo more PC developers over, and minimize Microsoft’s advantage in the PC realm.

And they get a type of bang for the buck. In that they are using a variation on a year old PC tech, which will have seen the brunt of R&D recoup for NVIDIA happen already.

 

[Bill]

So far PS3 games look better.

Both are on 90nm. There is no technology advantage here.

IF PS3 games look better, it will not be because they launched later. It will be due to better design, like a better GPU without EDRAM.

Both are paying the same per transistor.

Xbox used 337, Sony used 300.

It is looking like PS3 games will be 20+% more powerful.

There's no good reason for that.

 

[pakpassion]

So far PS3 games look better.

Both are on 90nm. There is no technology advantage here.

when they apply game code and we see that game code translated to screen, then we will compare.

 

[pakpassion]

Sorry Bill, but in the console environment, EDRAM makes a lot of sense, and so does Tiling, because it’s fixed hardware and target resolutions.

It creates a great bang for the buck ratio, and in an economy that has the console manufacturer subsidizing the cost of hardware, that is very important.

In Sony’s case this round, they could safely assume that the six month release window difference between them and Microsoft, would ensure that the performance of the PS3 would at least be comparable to the 360.

Then they would look at what made the original XBOX a contender last round- and that was Microsoft strength in the PC world. It gave the last out of the gate hardware lots of title support.

This time with a PC based technology they are hoping to woo more PC developers over, and minimize Microsoft’s advantage in the PC realm.

And they get a type of bang for the buck. In that they are using a variation on a year old PC tech, which will have seen the brunt of R&D recoup for NVIDIA happen already.

actually isnt MS XNA initiative to counter that? that make multiplatform X360 and PC games much easier when terms and code are collaborated with the XNA development tools thus allowing PC developers to develop more for MS?

 

[Alpha_Spartan]

So far PS3 games look better.

Both are on 90nm. There is no technology advantage here.

IF PS3 games look better, it will not be because they launched later. It will be due to better design, like a better GPU without EDRAM.

What PS3 games have you seen? You must be some kind of industry insider, because I haven't seen any PS3 games as of yet.

Bill, the more I read your bullshit, the less I'm inclined to take you seriously. I have a hard time telling if your whole "eDRAM is Satan on Silicon" is for real or a lame gimmick.

 

[scooby_dooby]

A) 720P is not bandwidth limited at 128 bit bus, therefore EDRAM is unneeded..

That's complete nonsense. For Splinter Cell 3, with a 128bit bus, the 7800GTX suffered a 27% frop in framerate compared to 5% drop with a 256bit bus. That's 1024x768!! LESS than 720p resolution. On an old game!

And bandwidth is not limited at 720p w/ a 128bit bus? Gimme a break, it's already limited on current generation games, let alone the next gen graphics we wil be seeing in 2 or 3 years.

 

[scooby_dooby]

So far PS3 games look better.

Actually so far they look worse. SInce the only real game running at a real framerate so far is Frame City Killers.

Heavenly Sword looks amazing, but last we heard it was ~5fps in outdoor scenes.

Bill you've ruined enough threads already, either open your ears and listen to what people try to explain to you, or just give it a rest.

 

[Bill]

Would you rather have Xenos with 64 ALU versus RSX with 16 pipes and EDRAM?

I sure as heck would.

The EDRAM is the obvious weakness of Xenos. I cant ignore it anymore.

OK my last comment will just be we need to see 2nd gen real games for both.

But the writing is on the wall in that GTX is killing ATI in PC's. Especially at anything near console res or without AA.

 

[SirTendeth]

We haven’t seen truly finalized games on either platform. So how you can say PS3 games look better is beyond me.

Unless you are unwilling to admit that graphics in a game often look better or –worse-upon completion then when they are in development.

Combine this with the fact that the 360 is trying to compete with hardware released six months later, in order to gain early market share and to be the predominant target platform. You should be able to see how for –THEM- it makes sense.

We don’t know the final cost to Sony or the consumer, for the PS3. But Microsoft knew they had to be both profitable and extremely price competitive against a machine that would be released later.

Sony has different needs and may or may not have positioned themselves the best because of the needs, we may never know. Because in the end its about profit and market penetration, and that doesn’t always relate to hardware design choices.

 

[Kb-Smoker]

This seems awfully familiar to the fake Ageia email that was posted a few months ago...I'm actually starting to wonder if all the "Doggett" emails are fake.

i think pakpassion is really onetimeposter...

 

[Laa-Yosh]

But we can always ignore you...

 

[SirTendeth]

Pakpassion, I don't know if I would consider XNA a counter. I think it's more of them continuing the natural progression of their strength as a tool provider, and in doing so increasing their already dominant position as the preferred technical environment for developers.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Would you rather have Xenos with 64 ALU versus RSX with 16 pipes and EDRAM?

I sure as heck would.

Man you just refuse to listen to what anyone says. I heard a saying on the apprentice last night, it's "Seek first to understand, then seek to be understood", try that approach.

You made a point that bandwidth is not limited at 720p with a 128bit bus, i gave you real life examples of current generation games that are ALREADY bandwidth limited at resolution LESS than 720p, and all you can do is regurgitate the same argument you've posted 15 times?

How about admitting your argument is fundamentally flawed and based on FALSE assumptions? Then we'd be getting somewhere...

Bandwidth IS an issue, and it will only become MORE of an issue as games get better and better, that's why EDRAM is so useful.

 

[pakpassion]

i think pakpassion is really onetimeposter...

wtf stop accusing me

 

[SirTendeth]

Would you rather have Xenos with 64 ALU versus RSX with 16 pipes and EDRAM?

I sure as heck would.

The EDRAM is the obvious weakness of Xenos. I cant ignore it anymore.

OK my last comment will just be we need to see 2nd gen real games for both.

But the writing is on the wall in that GTX is killing ATI in PC's. Especially at anything near console res or without AA.

Bill I must have missed the part wear you ever ignored the "Weakness of EDRAM".

And I'm not sure how comparing the success of a PC part from ATI with NO EDRAM, and Xenos With EDRAM does anything to justify your current position.

At least your apparently willing to wait to judge technical decisions until the second gen.

It's a start. I think.