MS to lose $75 per X360

While I'm not saying that it will always be cheaper to build it yourself, it most assuredly is when you have your own department, that produces (among others) products very much alike. And it should be, if a company decides to step into that market.

When I started this particular view of this argument, I stated that profit margins make up the very most of the price of any product. And I would like to add here, that a part of those margins are hidden costs themsleves, like salaries for people who are paid by prestation and investments in general. But most of it is Return On Investments.

There are lots of parties involved before any product reaches the consumer. And investors demand a ROI of at least 15%, as long as they can get that. It adds up.

Large corporations consist of lots and lots of divisions, companies and departments, who all have to turn a profit individually. Although the conglomeration of all those might and should add up to much less overhead and less stages that have to turn in a good ROI by themselves.

But, if that is the case, the benefit of scale works in their favor as well: such a large corporation has a much bigger budget to invest in new opportunities to turn in a good ROI, like a semiconductor division.

Sure, that's extremely expensive in initial investments, but after that the quarterly or yearly ROI is huge as well. And that can be used in turn to invest in new opportunities that deliver a good ROI. Or the other way around, as is the case for Sony.

But it doesn't really matter. Just count and add all individual (investments in) ROI's, substract the running costs and extrapolate the expected profit made. And divide that by the amount of shares.



Ok. To make a long story short: as long as most of the costs are investments and/or paid internal, the only thing the conglomerate has to worry about is their own, overall ROI. Which is made up of all the ROI's of all the individual parts. And which do better if the turn around is higher.

In short: If you make all of it yourself, the cost of the individual parts is almost irrelevant against the projected sales, as long as you can sell other products that use the same infrastructure or the volume is high enough. And a hundred million units or more is probably the wet dream of any CEO by itself, no matter what the product is.
 
I see what you are saying. So they have to invest in the manufacturing plants/equipment, and still pay for the raw materials though.

I don't know how much that will end up saving them over just outsourcing?
 
xbdestroya said:
Well, the suggestions stem from the fact that Sony IS the manufacturing sector.

Exactly. That would have saved me a lot of typing, if I had come up with that.

;)
 
Well, they've already spent over $3 billion on building and expanding various fabrication facilities, $600 million roughly on Cell development, whatever it cost in initial fees to get fifty NVidia engineers working on their GPU, and whatever else...

So clearly you get the idea that they have quite a bit of cash to play with. I'm not sure that Kutagari is as popular inside the corporation right now as he once was, but he still has the ability to tap into most any resource he would request.
 
I want to touch on the whole insourcing vs outsourcing thing for a moment, because I don't want it to seem that one is clearly better than the other. There are in fact many reasons to outsource given the right situation.

One easy example is Microsoft. Their XBox business is large enough that it makes sense for them to have the parts manufactured for them rather than buy the parts outright like they did with XBox 1, but not so large that it would at all make sense to do somethign like build a fabrication facility. Sometimes labor costs, workforce efficiency, infrastructure - tons of things - they all factor into whether it makes sense to outsource or not. DiGuru was talking about the internals and inter-departmental dynamic that exists within any conglomerate of sorts, but sometimes internal production can result in either higher component prices, lower efficiencies, or lower quality products, depending on the situation.

A lot of call centers in the US are being outsourced to foreign firms that specialize in that.

For the longest time, it cost Japanese steel companies less to purchase ore in the US, have it shipped to Japan, process it, and ship it back than it did for US manufacturers to do it themselves on their own soil - AND the Japanese steel was better.

See what I'm saying? It can go either way.

This issue is really too complex to boil down to one single post.

Sony manufactures their own stuff - or do they? Even they outsource some of their own production, or sometimes have outsourced firms supporting in-house production, as will soon happen with the PSP. There's lot's of different things to consider.

I think the fab facility for Sony in Nagasaki could be quite the success for them, provided they have consistent need for it's capacity. But of course it was a gamble building it. I'm betting on a good eventual return on investment, but we'll see what happens.
 
xbdestroya, I totally agree.

There is just no simple way to compare all that. And the price one of us would pay to build a comparable unit has no direct relation whatsoever to the ROI of Sony or Microsoft, or the street price and the amount of money they will lose or make by making it so.
 
To agree with xbdestroya, building everything yourself doesn't always work.

IBM made all their own stuff during the 80s and that resulted in a lot of expensive poor quality components made by internal teams that were lazy because they didn't have to compete against external vendors for contracts.

The question of insource vs outsource is not a simple issue, and a lot of factors go into a decision to determine which is the most optimal.
 
But keep in mind, that it might not be cheaper to do it yourself if all costs are calculated, but it might turn the perceived net loss into a net profit, if you pay that money to your own departments.
 
xbdestroya,

You mentioned outsourcing of the hard drive. Has it now been confirmed by Sony that the PS3 will ship with a HDD?

I have thought that Sony's 'TBA' stance on the HDD was a bit fishy, because if developers are already working on PS3 titles, they are either programming to make optimal use of a HDD or they are programming for a system without a HDD.

Last I heard, there was no official word from Sony on a HDD. Just curious if you have some breaking news :)
 
DiGuru said:
But keep in mind, that it might not be cheaper to do it yourself if all costs are calculated, but it might turn the perceived net loss into a net profit, if you pay that money to your own departments.
but those departments still have to pay upkeep on the fabs and for the fabs themselves along with materials to make the chips . So its kind of a wash in that regards .

It also means that sony is stuck with sony . Sony built these fabs so they have to use them . So say sony botches up 45nm really badly . They are stuck wit hthat bad move they can either ride it out till they fix it on 65nm or eat the mistake with bad yields .

With ms , if say tsmc screws the pooch and has a bad transistion to 65nm and umd (or is it umc ? ) doesn't they can buy the 65nm chips from umd and enjoy the benfits of 65nm with out having to suffer through the growing pains .

So there are pros and cons to both moves . If we simply fact out that in the end the permiums on both side balance out we are still left with some of the parts in the ps3 being bigger and ultimately more expensive to make and that will stay the same no matter the micron process
 
Sean*O said:
xbdestroya,

You mentioned outsourcing of the hard drive. Has it now been confirmed by Sony that the PS3 will ship with a HDD?

I have thought that Sony's 'TBA' stance on the HDD was a bit fishy, because if developers are already working on PS3 titles, they are either programming to make optimal use of a HDD or they are programming for a system without a HDD.

Last I heard, there was no official word from Sony on a HDD. Just curious if you have some breaking news :)

Well, they're still going to sell a hard drive. All I was saying was that they don't build hard drives themselves so they'll have to outsource.

I think the question you're asking is if I know whether those hard drives will be included standard or not - and to that, no, I don't have any special information. :)
 
sheesh man, come on. i mean defensive whenever somebody wants to argue an opinion with you, you feel the need to run out and find a quote you feel is appropriate "look homer simpson agrees with me".

On this one occasion I've quoted a relevant source to back up my opinion.. You really do have one hell of a tendency to exaggerate.

BTW how exactly does J Allard equal Homer Simpson? Have you lost your mind or what? :LOL:

There's no need really as this is all just opinion. That's what I called defensive...

So your saying its defensive to quote the opinion of Microsoft's VP in an opinion based thread about XBox 360?

As to what Allard meant. He was obviously skirting around the issue as much as possible. But I think his meaning was pretty clear. Still whatever you think he meant, the fact is 360's chips are far more expensive then XBox's chips were at launch. Considering that it seems extremely unlikely for 360 to be $50 cheaper overall.
 
He was obviously scurting around the issue as much as possible. Trying not to lie but also trying not to actually say outright that 360 was more expensive to produce at launch. Either way it was pretty clear what he meant. Even if you ignore that, once again if 360's chips are far more expensive then XBox at launch then 360 is not going to be $50 cheaper overall.

But there are less of them . There is no sound chip. We also don't know the price of the 20 gig drive vs the price of the 8gig drive when the xbox launched. Nor do we know the releative price of the dvd drives which i'm sure is cheaper now . We also don't know the yields of the gpu and cost vs the cost of the xbox gpu .

Its really hard to claim that the x360 will be more than the xbox was to make . We don't know everythign about the systems or the price strutcure
 
Allard said 360's silicon cost is far higher then XBox. So it seems that the lack of a sound chip doesn't stop the chips in 360 costing quite a bit more then the chips in XBox. A cheaper DVD drive and HDD would save a bit of money, good point. But I don't see that making the console $50 cheaper do you?
 
DiGuru said:
Don't forget, that Sony is a hardware company first and foremost, while Microsoft is a software company. Sony can deliver a box that is much more expensive to produce, and make or lose about the same amount as Microsoft when selling it at the same price.

You cannot compare both directly when you only look at the amount of money you would pay to build one of those boxes yourself at all.

Well Nintendo outsources its manufacturing to others just like MS, but the GCN didn't need to cost more than the PS2 to manufacture and at the same time offer higher performance. It's likely X360 will be cheaper than PS3 to manufacture.
 
Teasy said:
Allard said 360's silicon cost is far higher then XBox. So it seems that the lack of a sound chip doesn't stop the chips in 360 costing quite a bit more then the chips in XBox. A cheaper DVD drive and HDD would save a bit of money, good point. But I don't see that making the console $50 cheaper do you?

pcb ? ram costs ? plastic for the actual system :0) it is smaller .

Allard may be talking about right now for the beta kits going out ?
 
He said at launch, so he's definitely not talking about beta kits.

I can see how MS could have made quite a few small savings here and there in the 360 system (I can now anyway thanks to someone who actually wants a discussion) :). But even if we assume that MS have made a $50 saving on things like the DVD drive, HDD, PCB and case (which seems a little unlikely) the higher silicon cost would take a chunk out of that. I mean if anyone wants to argue that 360 and XBox are the same price at launch I could believe that given some of the possible savings you've brought up. But I just don't believe that 360 is $50 cheaper, not considering the performance and not considering what Allard himself has said.
 
Well my question would be this . When talking about the xbox cost . Does this price factor in shipping , packaging and add ins .

If it doens't then ignore this but if it does .

1 ) the controller seems to be smaller and easier to make

2) the packaging costs may be cheaper as ms now has the relationships with these companies that being a software company they never needed really

3) shipping , once again now 4 years later they have better shipping partners and better deals

4) construction of the case . Yes i don't think it will affect price that much , but perhaps they now have better deals for the actual casing and combining of the chips + pcb + hardrive + dvd stuff. Basicly making the actual system . That is a step not really talked about in the actual making of the system.

So i don't know how they add up costs of the unit . But this coupled with a savings on the hardrive and dvd drive may come close to the 50$ mark
 
PC-Engine said:
GCN didn't need to cost more than the PS2 to manufacture and at the same time offer higher performance.
Pretty invalid comparison as they are about 20 mths apart. In over-simplified Moore's Law considerations they are in a different generation. It is likely possible to produce the same 1.5 yr-old stuff at half the cost.(*)

And there were never any official manufacture costs numbers from anyone. MS officially stating the figure for XB1 is maybe the first time in recent console generations.

(*) And if we think about the 'half-cost issue' carefully, you can imagine how very quickly Sony turns a profit, since they control a large portion of their own costs. Think about this 'half-cost' issue now, then think about how much profit a PS2 unit is earning from the 299 you forked out in 2001. :devilish:
 
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