MS not to reach 3 million in 90 days Target

[blakjedi]

I will give it to Sony though... The damage they did to MS' launch was done months before so that whoever might have wanted an x360 started to lean away from getting one and then MS finished the job quite nicely with all these mess ups...

Mess ups dont just include where and when and how many were launched. It includes places like Best Buy placing the x360 in the back or side of the store near the appliances and stereos instead of by the IPods and Flat Screen TVS. It includes some stores using empty x360 boxes to prop up signs stating "pre-order your PS3 here!!!"

It includes having a kiosk in part of the store and placing the games and peripherals in a whole different aisle...

MS reps should be out in force weekly giving updates and checking stores in their regions to make sure the brand stays on peoples minds during the shortage... instead me and about 12 other folks were in Best Buy last night looking for someone to help us with IPod accessories...

MS is just basically missing the boat and Sony doesnt even HAVE to say anything....

 

[Powderkeg]

Says who?

Your only other option is that they set the allotment numbers without knowing how many systems they would receive, and then didn't alter the online numbers while changing the allotments for stores.

Store allotments were changed within the last week before launch, ironically only 2 days after a whole load of systems were sold online.

Why should the on-line branch of the business have their allotment taken away because independent retail outlets overbooked pre-orders?

Why should the customers who preordered have to wait while systems are sold to people who didn't preorder by the same company?

It's another version of "Front door, back door" sales. While you stand in line waiting for your prepaid order at the front door I'm cutting side deals with other people out the back. then when you finally get inside, "Oh I'm sorry sir, we didn't receive as many units as we thought.."

 

[Joe DeFuria]

I will give it to Sony though... The damage they did to MS' launch was done months before so that whoever might have wanted an x360 started to lean away from getting one and then MS finished the job quite nicely with all these mess ups...

So damaging they can't stock enough units to sell...

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Your only other option is that they set the allotment numbers without knowing how many systems they would receive...

No, they set a proportional allotment given the expected demand on a per store basis.

Why should the customers who preordered have to wait while systems are sold to people who didn't preorder by the same company?

Why should EB shut out all customers who don't want to pre-order...including those who don't have an EB within a short driving distance?

 

[Powderkeg]

No, they set a proportional allotment given the expected demand on a per store basis.

And they do this after deciding online allotments and before they are given estimates on how many systems they will receive to sell?

Why should EB shut out all customers who don't want to pre-order...including those who don't have an EB within a short driving distance?

Because the systems are already sold. Because EB/Gamestop have already accepted money from other people for them.

I can't think of any other industry where it would be considered acceptable to sell your entire allotment of a product before it's even shipped from the manufacturer, taking money from customers to ensure delivery, and then when it is shipped you skip out on giving the product to the people who have already paid for it and sell it to someone else instead.

In fact, in most lines of business, that type of activity is usually illegal.

 

[blakjedi]

So damaging they can't stock enough units to sell...

MS is just basically missing the boat and Sony doesnt even HAVE to say anything....

The marketplace should be flooded with x360s... the longer the wait the closer ps3 gets... the closer the PS3 gets the fewer the systems MS will sell relative to their current next gen monopoly. A Monopoly with nothing to sell is useless...

 

[Sis]

The marketplace should be flooded with x360s... the longer the wait the closer ps3 gets... the closer the PS3 gets the fewer the systems MS will sell relative to their current next gen monopoly. A Monopoly with nothing to sell is useless...

Maybe... I'm more inclined to think that once PS3 releases and they hit shortages, and Xbox 360s are readily available and 2nd gen games are starting to be released, then consumers will continue to buy large quantities of Xbox 360s.

 

[Fox5]

Maybe... I'm more inclined to think that once PS3 releases and they hit shortages, and Xbox 360s are readily available and 2nd gen games are starting to be released, then consumers will continue to buy large quantities of Xbox 360s.

That logic didn't work for the Dreamcast, people just waited until PS2 became more readily available.

 

[Sis]

That logic didn't work for the Dreamcast, people just waited until PS2 became more readily available.

Was the Dreamcast sold out at any point? Also, didn't it get canceled a month or two after the PS2 release?

Just doesn't seem like a usuable frame of reference.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

And they do this after deciding online allotments and before they are given estimates on how many systems they will receive to sell?

Huh? No, they decide ahead of time (simplified) that "store A will get X% of the units, store B will get y%, on-line store gets z%".

Because the systems are already sold. Because EB/Gamestop have already accepted money from other people for them.

Money that these people voluntarily give, without a guarantee of getting a system on launch day. So what's your point?

In fact, in most lines of business, that type of activity is usually illegal.

So, the console business has some exclusion from illegal activity? Um...OK...

 

[Joe DeFuria]

The marketplace should be flooded with x360s...

Right, so the newspapers would read: "MS can't even sell their initial launch shipment through...what a failure."

The marketplace should have exactly "enough units between launch day and before PS3 hits the streets such that MS hits the sales target they want".

That's it.

 

[blakjedi]

Right, so the newspapers would read: "MS can't even sell their initial launch shipment through...what a failure."

The marketplace should have exactly "enough units between launch day and before PS3 hits the streets such that MS hits the sales target they want".

That's it.

And since they got that "exactly" thing so very wrong....

I have my x360 so no worries... but I wish more people had theirs.... Jump in....

 

[Joe DeFuria]

And since they got that "exactly" thing so very wrong....

Come again? Last I checked, MS wanted roughly 5 million by June. Methinks you should wait until the PS3 ships before you claim MS got something wrong...

 

[Fox5]

Was the Dreamcast sold out at any point? Also, didn't it get canceled a month or two after the PS2 release?

Just doesn't seem like a usuable frame of reference.

Don't remember, but the logic was put out at that time that Dreamcast sales would pick up after the Ps2 launch due to low availability of the PS2 and the people's want for a next gen system. Since that didn't happen then, there's no reason to think people will pick Xbox 360 over Ps3 just because 360 is more available at PS3's launch.

I'm not sure if dreamcast was sold out (the console had very good availability), but I believe it broke previous sales records and had broken 10 million units sold by the time PS2 launched. Xbox 360 won't come anywhere near 10 million units by Ps3 launch, though Microsoft also won't throw in the towel. Still, prior to Sega pulling out of the market, Dreamcast sales plummetted on the launch of the PS2. It literally was a "no one's buying this system anymore" type thing that happened with Atari and many other technology ventures in the past.

 

[Sis]

Don't remember, but the logic was put out at that time that Dreamcast sales would pick up after the Ps2 launch due to low availability of the PS2 and the people's want for a next gen system. Since that didn't happen then, there's no reason to think people will pick Xbox 360 over Ps3 just because 360 is more available at PS3's launch.

I'm not sure if dreamcast was sold out (the console had very good availability), but I believe it broke previous sales records and had broken 10 million units sold by the time PS2 launched. Xbox 360 won't come anywhere near 10 million units by Ps3 launch, though Microsoft also won't throw in the towel. Still, prior to Sega pulling out of the market, Dreamcast sales plummetted on the launch of the PS2. It literally was a "no one's buying this system anymore" type thing that happened with Atari and many other technology ventures in the past.

Well, it was a rhetorical question(s), but you bring up the interesting point about 10 million consoles shipped (I can't find a report that talks about sell through, though Wikipedia also says the same thing--which is where I'm assuming you got your information from).

But regardless, surely you see some differences between Dreamcast and PS2 in comparison between Xbox 360 and PS3? Otherwise it seems that the argument boils down to the Playstation always winning, in perpetuity, since this would be historically accurate based on the last 10 years.

 

[Fox5]

Well, it was a rhetorical question(s), but you bring up the interesting point about 10 million consoles shipped (I can't find a report that talks about sell through, though Wikipedia also says the same thing--which is where I'm assuming you got your information from).

But regardless, surely you see some differences between Dreamcast and PS2 in comparison between Xbox 360 and PS3? Otherwise it seems that the argument boils down to the Playstation always winning, in perpetuity, since this would be historically accurate based on the last 10 years.

Well, Microsoft has repeated the rushed launch Sega did with the Saturn (though not anywhere near as bad), and if going by the Dreamcast versus PS2 as a precedent, Microsoft needs to gets its supply in now, and not depend on being the 2nd choice console after PS3 launches. When people are given a choice between what they want, and something that's "Pretty much just as good," I think they'll wait rather than go with what's available. Consoles have too much mindshare for people to treat them as easily replaceable as a PC or DVD player. Otherwise you'd probably find the cheapest console to be the best selling.

 

[Phil]

But regardless, surely you see some differences between Dreamcast and PS2 in comparison between Xbox 360 and PS3? Otherwise it seems that the argument boils down to the Playstation always winning, in perpetuity, since this would be historically accurate based on the last 10 years.

What are you going to say if the PlayStation will win for the exact same reasons it did over Sega 5 years ago (and I'm no, they didn't win because Sega threw in the towel, it was lost before that already)?

The differences are there, no doubt - the question though is, how far are those some differences going to make a difference? For every advantage Microsoft has over what Sega had 5 years ago (money, software-support, xbox live, loyal hardcore fanbase etc), there are advantages Sony has over what they had 5 years ago too (namely, increased marketshare/brand-recognition, being dominant for 2 generations in a row, a library from the get go of 13'000+ titles that loyal consumers will still be able to enjoy).

 

[Sis]

What are you going to say if the PlayStation will win for the exact same reasons it did over Sega 5 years ago (and I'm no, they didn't win because Sega threw in the towel, it was lost before that already)?

The differences are there, no doubt - the question though is, how far are those some differences going to make a difference? For every advantage Microsoft has over what Sega had 5 years ago (money, software-support, xbox live, loyal hardcore fanbase etc), there are advantages Sony has over what they had 5 years ago too (namely, increased marketshare/brand-recognition, being dominant for 2 generations in a row, a library from the get go of 13'000+ titles that loyal consumers will still be able to enjoy).

I agree primarily with the highlighted part. It does seem Sony would need to make several mistakes with the PS3 to alter our expectations based on historically what's happened--and I've yet to see them make one.

But let's talk about the Dreamcast some more: 10 million units shipped/maybe sold in that first year, and you say that Sega lost well before they threw in the towel? This doesn't make sense to me (which is why I'm thinking it was 10 million shipped and hardly that number sold). My thinking is that it's too simple to suggest that simply shipping before Sony is doomed to failure--or as put forth earlier, that consumers view the Xbox 360 in the same light they did the Dreamcast. Note that the quote that started this by me was:

"I'm more inclined to think that once PS3 releases and they hit shortages, and Xbox 360s are readily available and 2nd gen games are starting to be released, then consumers will continue to buy large quantities of Xbox 360s."

This statement does not mean, as Fox5 put it, "When people are given a choice between what they want, and something that's 'Pretty much just as good, I think they'll wait rather than go with what's available." My statement is pretty clear that if consumers still want Xbox 360 in large quantitities and PS3 hits a shortage, it is an advantage for the Xbox 360. At which point all this talk of a failed launch would be forgotten.

 

[Phil]

From what I've read in this thread and am basing the following on, it seemed the sales of Dreamcast fell rapidly after the launch of PS2. PS2's selling performance, support and software coming its way was in a league of its own, really... After just about a year, PS2 had more or less an equal marketshare while still selling very strong. I'd say that's around the time when I would say that Dreamcast had lost it - mainly due to their falling support and sales. When Dreamcast threw in the towel in 2001, it was already falling behind, quick - which is why I made that comment. It was already falling behind before Sega pulled the plug.

I mean, if you look at sales of even GameCube and Xbox, there was rarely a month where even those two consoles ever came close to (or did) outselling PS2. From what I've gathered, I would say Xbox (and somewhat Nintendo) benefited directly and the most from Dreamcast's halt, as many moved on to those systems thanks to the support Sega was giving or the hatred for Sony. I would say in the larger picture, few of those loyal fans bought a PS2, if only for VF4. There was a lot more reasons [IMO] going to Xbox as a Sega supporter.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Well you can't talk in a gameless vaccum, it just ignores the single biggest factor influencing sales.

What GAMES were coming out for dreamcast in xmas 2001 that would convince people to buy it?

IMO, If dreamcast had a game lineup anywhere near as powerful as the 360's holiday game line-up it would have had a jump in sales.