MPAA sues Btefnet!

[Bigus Dickus]

Ok, so while you think companies should be a bit more fair, as a business person you just want your customers to shut up and hand you the money.

I'm not sure where you got such an idea. I think companies should behave more ethically and morally, and that includes mine. My customers expect the best and are generally very demanding. I do my best to provide a product or service that is exemplary, and I find that when I do I am compensated more than fairly for it. I make it a rule to thoroughly document for each customer a full explanation of what I am suggesting and why, and what the alternatives are (either cheaper or more expensive). If they buy from me, I want to them to be well informed. I find that well informed customers make better customers. I'm sure I've lost potential customers due to this philosophy, but conversely the cusomers I do retain are willing to pay very well for this type of treatment.

I practice what I preach. And it seems to pay off.

This whole discussion irritates you enormously, because you totally understand why the media corporations behave like they do. You would be mightily pissed and threaten them with lawsuits as well if people made do with free alternatives instead of buying your products.

What irratates me is people stealing and trying to pass it off as a right they imagine they have. And let's be perfectly clear about your last statement - I would be mighy pissed if people made do with my products for free, as that is theft, and I would prosecute to the extent of the law. If people find a legitimate and free alternative to my product (and that doesn't include theft of the competition, either), such as a company with a different business model whereby they give away products for free in return for high profits on advertising (doesn't really fit my business niche, but whatever...), then more power to them.

If my business model can't compete with legitimate competing businesses and business models, then I don't deserve to stay in business.

 

[Frank]

I make it a rule to thoroughly document for each customer a full explanation of what I am suggesting and why, and what the alternatives are (either cheaper or more expensive). If they buy from me, I want to them to be well informed. I find that well informed customers make better customers. I'm sure I've lost potential customers due to this philosophy, but conversely the cusomers I do retain are willing to pay very well for this type of treatment.

I practice what I preach. And it seems to pay off.

Ok. I totally agree with that. I do that as well.

But I think the issue of downloading software and media isn't as black and white as you make it out to be. And I don't feel myself a thief, and I don't like to be called that. I follow my own judgement, and I think I'm being pretty fair, even if I sometimes download things without first paying from them. If all my customers behaved the same way I do, I would be very pleased.

 

[epicstruggle]

Diguru, can you tell what software you make? How about your customer list while your at it? Id love to send FREE copies to them, and to others who dont have it. I promise not to make a single penny from it, but i think your hard working customer shouldnt have to pay to get your stuff.

epic.

 

[Frank]

Diguru, can you tell what software you make? How about your customer list while your at it? Id love to send FREE copies to them, and to others who dont have it. I promise not to make a single penny from it, but i think your hard working customer shouldnt have to pay to get your stuff.

epic.

Don't bother. Some of the small customers who wouldn't buy it anyway have gotten it for free already. And I expect the larger ones who really use it to pay a fair price.

 

[epicstruggle]

Diguru, can you tell what software you make? How about your customer list while your at it? Id love to send FREE copies to them, and to others who dont have it. I promise not to make a single penny from it, but i think your hard working customer shouldnt have to pay to get your stuff.

epic.

Don't bother. Some of the small customers who wouldn't buy it anyway have gotten it for free already. And I expect the larger ones who really use it to pay a fair price.

I think a fair price is free. Lets see your company survive that. Put up or shut up, whats the software that you make. Bonus if you list your customer db, would make it easier to mail them hundreds of free copy.

Im sure silence is salivating at getting more free software.

epic

 

[Frank]

I think a fair price is free.

Changed your opinion, have you? Flip-flopping a bit?

Put up or shut up

But I do. I'm treating my customers as I would want to be treated as well. And I do myself what I would want my customers to do.

Can you say the same?

 

[epicstruggle]

sarcasm is lost on you.

epic
ps I guess your worried about the income you make, thats why you cant tell me what software you make. lol. you hypocrite thief.

 

[Bigus Dickus]

And I don't feel myself a thief, and I don't like to be called that.

Not my problem. Don't steal and you won't be called a thief. Your choice.

 

[Frank]

And I don't feel myself a thief, and I don't like to be called that.

Not my problem. Don't steal and you won't be called a thief. Your choice.

Do you ever drive faster than the speed limit? Always wait for the red light, even in the middle of the night or when walking and the road is deserted? Never park your car somewhere without paying, or on a spot where it isn't allowed? Never litter? Never omit anything on your tax form that might increase the amount? Always tell the police when someone you know has done something illegal? Always leave a note when you accidentally scratch or otherwise damage something?

Because if you ever did any of that, you're a criminal.

 

[epicstruggle]

Well thanks to the thieves and dope smoking thieves. This is what we have to look forward to:
http://it.slashdot.org/it/05/05/19/1221226.shtml?tid=172&tid=97&tid=155&tid=158

Wired is reporting on some scary new DRM tech being developed. From the article: 'At the store, someone buying a new DVD would have to provide a password or some kind of biometric data, like a fingerprint or iris scan, which would be added to the DVD's RFID tag. Then, when the DVD was popped into a specially equipped DVD player, the viewer would be required to re-enter the data.'"

thanks
epic

 

[Frank]

Well thanks to the thieves and dope smoking thieves. This is what we have to look forward to:
http://it.slashdot.org/it/05/05/19/1221226.shtml?tid=172&tid=97&tid=155&tid=158

Wired is reporting on some scary new DRM tech being developed. From the article: 'At the store, someone buying a new DVD would have to provide a password or some kind of biometric data, like a fingerprint or iris scan, which would be added to the DVD's RFID tag. Then, when the DVD was popped into a specially equipped DVD player, the viewer would be required to re-enter the data.'"

thanks
epic

Cool! Darwin award around the corner for them!

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

So no buying DVD's for Chrismas presents then?

That's nothing to do with piracy, that's about the content producers levering ever more control over how you use what you buy. It's to make sure that you cannot sell on your legally bought version, cannot lend or give it to a friend or relative, and is a precursor to charging for every time you watch the item that you (thought you) bought.

The market won't stand it. The retailers will hate it. The customer will curse it. The large scale counterfitters will love it. They'll be able to rip the data and make poor quality counterfeits while the film distributers drive their customers towards this black market.

 

[Druga Runda]

just to drop in:

This is about the perception, and about restricting the market trough legislation.

If the market was free, people producing any kind of digital content would again make money, just in different ways.

The whole point is not to "outlaw" personal use, but to allow it, and make the "professional" users pay.. that is all there is to it.

However being that the industry - espectialy music - which is an overhead and not an "value add" component anymore , have tons of money from decades past so they can bribe politicans to back up their cause. However they will lose eventually, as you cannot go against nature.

The only point is that they have "tons" of money to burn so the swithc will be long, and painfull for some that are caught in the crossfire.


-
& to add - it is about the ability to replicate something else on your own for your use, or if you could replicate bread/cars/whatever one day should you still pay for it?

 

[Bigus Dickus]

And I don't feel myself a thief, and I don't like to be called that.

Not my problem. Don't steal and you won't be called a thief. Your choice.

Do you ever drive faster than the speed limit? Always wait for the red light, even in the middle of the night or when walking and the road is deserted? Never park your car somewhere without paying, or on a spot where it isn't allowed? Never litter? Never omit anything on your tax form that might increase the amount? Always tell the police when someone you know has done something illegal? Always leave a note when you accidentally scratch or otherwise damage something?

Because if you ever did any of that, you're a criminal.

Well... I think you should take a look at those last two examples. Are you asking if I did that, or if I failed to do that? I think you got confused.

Anyway, I've ran stop signs (sometimes on purpose), sped, parked illegally, and a host of other things (never filed a false tax return, however).

The difference is that I admit that what I did was illegal, would expect to be called a criminal for what I did, don't delude myself into thinking that it's somehow justified, and would expect just punishment if caught.

Again, if you don't want to be called a thief, don't steal. I don't mind being called a criminal for speeding, because it is criminal. Duh.

 

[Bigus Dickus]

-
& to add - it is about the ability to replicate something else on your own for your use, or if you could replicate bread/cars/whatever one day should you still pay for it?

Good point, and one that brings up an interesting and revealing way to look at the problem. So many have problems equating information theft with physical theft. This type of "thought experiment" should help.

Imagine that someone invents a Star Trek type replicator, that through a simple hand scan of any object you could reproduce a copy of it for yourself. Like a car on a car lot... simply scan it and replicate it at home. Need new clothes? Man, talk about a new kind of shopping spree! Toys? Got it. Food? No problem. Is this theft? You bet.

Now, you might argue that economics should change to handle such a revolutionary invention. A reasonable suggestion would be that the scanner would be rather expensive, perhaps even costing quite a bit for each use, and a regulated body would distribute money on some predetermined basis to other industries to compensate (i.e., some money from sales would go to car delears, retail shoe stores, etc.).

To make the analogy accurate, however, you have to add to the imaginative scenario the presence of essentially free scanners/replicators that cost essentially nothing per use. If millions of people have access to free cars, who compensates the engineers that spent cumulatively thousands of hours of time designing it? Who compensates the plant that tooled up to manufacture just one of them (millions of dollars)?

Would you really think it odd if retail stores started asking for verification that your scanner was registered? Would you think it odd if other regulatory and protection schemes were enacted to protect both industry and law abiding consumers? Do you think those sneaking onto car lots at night and scanning cars with illegal "free" scanners would be guilty of theft?

I mean, everyone knows how evil and scummy those car salesmen are. They don't deserve to make any money. As long as they are charging that much for a car, I think we should be able to replicate them for free. Right?

 

[DudeMiester]

What would happen in that situation is at first, people would be paying for the designs and not the actual cars. Then once they figure out how to copy and distribute the designs for themselves, we would have to switch to open source. People who design cars only because they like to design cars, not because they need to make money. Sure maybe they get some compensation through donations, but that's not the point. People have a living doing something else that cannot be replicated, and do other stuff later because they have a passion for it. In such a world art would supercede business, beauty would beat profit, etc.... Not a bad idea imho.

Now lets even extend this farther. Perhaps someday in the distant future everything can be replicated. Why that's not a problem, because now you don't even need a job or work to live well. You can spend your entire time doing the things you love, making your dreams come true without limitation of any kind. A utopian society, although this kind of extreme is certain not to happen unfortunitly.

 

[Bigus Dickus]

...we would have to switch to open source. People who design cars only because they like to design cars, not because they need to make money. Sure maybe they get some compensation through donations, but that's not the point. People have a living doing something else that cannot be replicated, and do other stuff later because they have a passion for it.

Sure. Sounds suspiciously like some ideas that Marx scribbled down. I think you vastly underestimate the force of capitalism in propelling technology. I have a master's degree in mechanical engineering, and am capable of understanding all the systems in a modern car (even the electronics and programming, with considerable study and effort). Many of them I am even capable of designing to today's standards. But for a whole car I would need decades of time and millions of dollars in equipment and materials, and I'm not sure even then I could pull off a modern car within my lifespan.

50's era technology, sure. Give me a decade or two and a lot of money. A crude performance car that focuses on mechanical systems in lieu of comfort, electronics, etc.? Sure. But today's cars require scores of highly trained engineers, untold millions in computers, prototyping equipment, the prototypes themselves, test facilities, etc., etc., etc., and still required years of development time.

And you think someone might do that for free because it is his passion? We'd all be driving T-model Fords. Technology would regress dramatically. This holds equally true for computers, consumer electronics, avaition, and dozens of other items we have become accustomed to. The primary reason technology progresses is that profits are generated. It is the justification for large corporations to hire a thousand employees and invest millions in R&D.

In such a world art would supercede business, beauty would beat profit, etc.... Not a bad idea imho.

Quite idealistic. What you describe is a world in which there are nice paintings but no vacuum cleaners. Cars look nice but get horrendous gas mileage and are death traps. TV's that have exquisite cabinet craftsmanship and barely work, if at all. There are no commercial airplanes, no DVD players, and no personal computers.

Now lets even extend this farther. Perhaps someday in the distant future everything can be replicated. Why that's not a problem, because now you don't even need a job or work to live well. You can spend your entire time doing the things you love, making your dreams come true without limitation of any kind.

This kind of Star Trek paradise sounds quite nice, but it suffers from the same problems as communism. What motivation do you have to work if everything is provided free? I know I'd probably keep up a hobby that I spent a few hours a week on, but if I had everything already I would tour the world, engage is plenty of recreation and entertainment, and enjoy life. Many others would do exactly the same. Now who's going to spend their lives developing the technology for those replicators?

People on this very thread would rather steal than work for something. And you expect them to work without any compensation at all?

 

[epicstruggle]

People on this very thread would rather steal than work for something. And you expect them to work without any compensation at all?

QFT

 

[silence]

Well thanks to the thieves and dope smoking thieves. This is what we have to look forward to:
http://it.slashdot.org/it/05/05/19/1221226.shtml?tid=172&tid=97&tid=155&tid=158

Wired is reporting on some scary new DRM tech being developed. From the article: 'At the store, someone buying a new DVD would have to provide a password or some kind of biometric data, like a fingerprint or iris scan, which would be added to the DVD's RFID tag. Then, when the DVD was popped into a specially equipped DVD player, the viewer would be required to re-enter the data.'"

thanks
epic

well, thanks to scumbag illegal immigrants people need vizas to visit countries.... these people that cheat to get into some country and then fake their IDs are making it really harder for honest people to travel around the world....

thanks
silence

 

[Frank]

If your market is large enough, you don't have to earn much money from each of your customers. Or even from all of them.

If you can replicate anything, you can make money by making a nice design, and offering it on the internet. If enough people like it, and some donate some money to you, you can have a good income, as long as the market is large enough.